First attempt at lock manipulation

[twenglish 1]

I am about to give this another go, going to take readings every two numbers to see what that will tell me about the lock, if it fails i will continue to try, if i get nowhere after a few more attempts i will try my methods on the bottom lock, the one that i know is opperational, i don't really have a good way to get a borescope into the top lock unless i drill through the front, the whole mech behind the door has a cover over the back of it, this plate cannot be removed unless the door is open, the bolts go though it, all the edges of this back cover are also welded together, although if i resort to drilling i might be able to drill from the bottom safe up though and though the bottom of the mech cover, but as of now i am not ready to resort to drilling

[twenglish 1]

Attempt number 3 graphs:

i feel i am better getting the hang of this, my graphs are definetly showing consistancy in points of interest, what do you all think? i picked 3 numbers and tried every combination of the three, but i would like to know, what numbers would you pick as possible gates, and why? and where do i go from here?

[jharveee]

I Think I would amplify 52 thru 62.
1-20 most likely not wheel three.
wheel three most likely to indicate first.
That area may just be a common low spot shared by all the wheels.
Which is good info.
could park wheels 1 and 2 is the middle and spin 3 around solo.

If no luck there, look at your next best indication, 85-99.
Amplify area, see if a gate pops out.

no luck there, try 1-20.
Amplify.

For me the goal would be to find ONE gate. first.
Amplify to find TRUE CENTER of gate. second.
Identify which wheel the newly found gate is on. (high-low testing). Third.

[twenglish 1]

I will give it a try, by amplify do you mean take a reading at intervals of one?

[jharveee]

Yes.

[jharveee]

I suggest that if you haven't read already, "A Little Book I Wrote" by Dagger.
You Read It now.
It is a Quick read as it is only maybe 30 pages.
It will guide you through and explain the techniques that you are looking for.

[GWiens2001]

The promising areas I see are at 5, 60 and 95.

I would try to isolate the wheels where the low spots are located. This can be done with high-low tests.

For the 5 number, try these test combinations, and check the contact points at the end of each combination.

20-5-5
5-20-5
5-5-20

Did any of those combinations cause the low spot to go away? If so, then the low spot is on that wheel. For example, if the contact points are the same for the second and third combinations, but are further apart for the first combination, then the number 5 is on the first wheel. Meaning your combination at this point would be:

5-x-x

Now do the same for 60

80-60-60
60-80-60
60-60-80

Same routine - does the low spot disappear (the contact points get further apart) with one of those combinations? If yes, which wheel? Let's say three causes it to go away. Then you would be at:

5-x-60

Now for 95.

15-95-95
95-15-95
95-95-15

If you are very lucky, you will then find that the second wheel has a gate at 15, leaving you with a combination of 5-95-60.

You are very unlikely (but distantly possible) to have all three of the numbers in that graph above. But it can happen.

Now, if you find a number and gate match, then take that into consideration when you are dialing in other combination possibilities. If you only find a gate at 95, on wheel one, then your future dialing will be:

95-x-x

Always dial the number you know at the proper place in the combination. If you have two numbers, say 95 and 60 on wheels one and three, then you would try to brute force the second number.

95-93-60
95-91-60
95-89-60
95-87-60

and so forth.

Good luck, and keep us informed of any results. If you determine the number of only one wheel, which number is it, and on what wheel? We want to know! We are living vicariously through you, our new spinning friend.

Gordon

[twenglish 1]

Ok i believe i found wheel 1 to be 95, the largest contact area in the 3 combinations for 95 was the first one, the only one where 95 was not the first number, i also think i found wheel 3 to be 60, in the group of 3 combinations for 60 the largest distance between contact points was when 60 was not on wheel 3

[GWiens2001]

Heh. It was just coincidence that I selected 95 as wheel one and 60 as wheel three in my examples. But if they are correct, then you can try brute forcing the second number exactly as in the final part of the example. Checking with every other number should be good enough for most safe locks when brute forcing the final unknown number.

Don't think it was any skill or experience on my part at looking at your graph and magically seeing what goes where. Just blind luck, to be honest. Though in four out of five cases, the first gate located is on wheel one in my experience. Your performance may vary.

Gordon

[twenglish 1]

Now i am unsure if the 95 and 60 are exactly correct but they appear to atleast be fairly close, close enough to open the lock? i have no idea yet, i will keep at it and keep everyone updated, if anyone else has any more pointers feel free to post them

I may try checking contact numbers within 10 numbers plus or minus from 95 to see if i can narrow it down more, i will do the same with 60, will post results later

[Oldfast]

Just backing up a bit to some of your previous thoughts and questions....

..... i know there is more that can go wrong in the lock but do you think it is safe to assume the lock is opperational?

Personally, I'd say it's definitely worth a shot. We know the lever arm is in working order. We know the
wheels seem to be picking up correctly. As you said, there is more that can go wrong... but I guess
you'll find that out very quickly after you feel that fence drop into the gates. And even if it doesn't
open at that point, I'll bet you'd still be pretty damn excited! lol

..... has a small keylock in the dial, my guess is this keeps it from turning?.....

That's right. Just an additional security feature. You'd turn the dial to zero,
insert & turn the key, and the dial will lock in position so it cannot be rotated.

.....i am unsure if this is a thermal relocker or if it just releases if you try to dissasemble the lock by means of a hole drilled in the back.....

Many relockers are BOTH. They will engage if the cover plate is popped off...
OR... if exposed to extreme heat, the piece will melt allowing the pin to engage.


Looking over your graphs, I'd say your touch has progressively become lighter & more accurate. Very nice!

I'm sorry if you stated this, but these graphs... are they AWL or AWR?

I agree the areas around 20 and 60 are definitely intriguing
If you're going to run some test combos utilizing the 2-3 promising areas
you've found... remember the drive pins create rotational differences that
you have to take into account. (ie. L60 will be slightly different than R60).

Also, I want to take note of the biggest drop on some of your graphs....
it happens to be within your contact area. Taking readings within this
area can sometimes be tricky and give you incorrect results. Maybe
that's not the case here... or is it? Just thought I'd throw that out.

[twenglish 1]

All measurements have been taken at AWL, the combination will be dialed starting with AWL, the big drop in the contact area may be a mistake on my part, i will retest that area in increments of one, i made a mistake in the above post, and i did some more testing wheel 3 is Left to 91, i zeroed in on 91 by parking wheels one and two inside the contact area and testing wheel 3 in the region around 90 - 99, i confimed it was wheel 3 by using the high low method mentioned above.

EDIT: as of now i seem to be getting 65.5 - X - 91, going to try to brute force the 2nd number starting with numbers around other points of interest on my most recent graph

[jharveee]

Great going!
It's good to see your getting some qualified help from some knowledgeable members.
It was with their help and other members that got me to my first manipulation.
Its a great feeling when the lock opens.

[twenglish 1]

Using 65.5-X-91 and bruteforcing around possible interest points on my most recent graph, no luck so far

Upon further examination of the bottom lock, it is a LaGard 1548 i believe, it has the symbol of a G inside of an L

[jharveee]

After looking at the photos again, the Dial Rings are different.
So, I think your right about the bottom lock being La Gard and the top lock being a S&G.
As long as the lock your trying to open is a Group 2 and is working, you should be fine.
Sounds like your getting close to success.