First attempt at lock manipulation

[twenglish 1]

I mentioned in my introduction thread that i recently accuired a two door safe, it was discarded because the top combination no longer "worked" both doors are locked, however the bottom door was open and i was able to dissasemble the lock and take a peak at the wheels as i spun the dial and i successfully retrieved the combination. The top safe door is locked and closed and i have my eyes set on learning the art of manipulation to open it, i know i could easily gain access through other means but it is empty as far as i know and well i'm not learning anything if i just cut it open with a cutoff wheel. Below i will post my first attempt at graphing all three wheels at once. This was all done by feel of the dial around the contact area. Now i am unsure if i have the left and right contact points labled correctly, in my reasearch i didnt find to much about this part, i called the points around 98 on the dial the left contact and the points around the 7 the right contact. After looking at the graphs nothing stood out to me as being a sure giveaway of a correct number, could just be because i am a nooby at this and honsetly not sure what i am looking for, i know the contact area will narrow slightly when the wheels are aligned correctly

[flywheel]

Good start. Looks like you have something of interest around 50-55.
I would also try increasing your resolution, ie label quarter increments instead of half. When the index mark and dial lines are completely aligned give that a whole number value. When the index mark is centered perfectly between the dial lines call it 1/2. When one side of the index mark touches a line call it 1/4 or 3/4. There is a lot of information to be found in there.
After ~10 manipulations (or sooner) you may begin to feel comfortable recognizing and marking 1/8th increments.
Good luck and remember a short pencil is better than a long memory.

[twenglish 1]

Yeah after my this first attempt i did some more reading and realized that i would need to be more accurate than .5 of a number, i will give it another go and try to be accurate to 1/4 increments, do you or anyone else have any pointers on how to turn the dial to accutately detect the contact points? i have found it a little tricky sometimes to feel exactly where it is, especially on the right contact point because of the slope in the drive cam

Also i have just been assuming that the lock is still functional, i was told that the safe was discarded because the combination on the top lock didnt work anymore, now i have been able to successfully park the wheels and count them, the dial doesnt stick or anything and all wheels seem to turn freely, and i am able to feel the contact points, maybe one of the wheels shifted off the original combination? i am not sure what the problem could be

EDIT: Typo correction and added to original post

[Oldfast]

If you were told the safe was discarded due to the top lock not working, I'd encourage you
to run some diagnostics before running too many more graphs. Learning manipulation can
be difficult -- learning manipulation on a lock that's not running correctly could leave you
more crazy than I am! lol

There's a number of things that could go wrong, most of which I'm not familiar with...
hopefully one of our seasoned safe techs will chime in on this. The presence of your
contact points is a good thing - the lever is still spring loaded and functioning properly.

You mentioned you were able to feel all 3 wheels pick up, but where? It varies
with each lock, but generally each wheel should pick up within 1-2 increments
of where you left them. For example: try bringing all wheels right to say 60.
Then go left... with each revolution you'll pick up a wheel. Your first pass
should pick up w3 at 60.5. Second pass, w2 at 61. And then w1 at 61.5.

Again, this is just an example... yours may vary. Point is all of them should be
picking up around 1-2 incs from 60. If you find one of them picking up 10 incs
away from 60, then you have a problem.

Also, take some time to get a feel for the terminology used. This will help A LOT
when it comes to asking questions as well as interpreting the answers you receive.
Once you've found your first gate... that's when the real conversation begins and
things can get tricky. You'll be happy to have a common language!

The thread I started some time ago I realize has reached a rather unmanageable read. lol
But as with most threads I start, the comments people leave are usually more helpful than
the posts I do within it. At the very least you could skim through and look at some of the
graphs to get a feel for what various gate signatures will look like.

And, as flywheel mentioned, you're definitely going to want to work at taking your readings
in smaller divisions. It can be tricky at first, so you don't want to bite off more than you can
chew. I currently take readings in tenths but find that eights is sufficient for many locks.

[jharveee]

I'm just watching and learning at this point.
Both flywheel and Oldfast have made solid points that should be considered.
Keep at it..........it won't open on it's own.
I sure hope the lock is working properly and you are able to manipulate it open.
Is it possible to post a picture of the safe?
The more info you are able to post about your safe will allow others to help better.
Good Luck

[twenglish 1]

So i did the quick test you mentioned, i grabbed all the wheels turning counterclockwise and parked them at 50(opposite the contact area on my safe) slowly rotating the dial to the clockwise and all wheels picked up right around 50, i know there is more that can go wrong in the lock but do you think it is safe to assume the lock is opperational? It is a Sergant and Greenleaf lock, has a small keylock in the dial, my guess is this keeps it from turning? i ordered a stethoscope to assist in taking readings, i figured i might be able to hear the slight tap of the contact point with one better than i can feel the dial, at least until i become more seasoned at this.

@Oldfast: i read through some of your threads before i joined here, especially the thread of your first opening had a ton of good information in it

Attached is a picture of the safe

Upon dissassembly and analizing of the bottom lock, at least the bottom door, there appears to be some sort of metal plate between the door and the lock, this plate is not welded to the door but there is a steel cover welded to the door around this plate to hold it in place, my guess is it is something resistant to drilling and it also appears to have some sort of thermal relocking device, there is a thin brass plate attached with the screws that hold the lock cover on, the plate appears to be holding back a spring loaded pin that if released will jam into a cutout similar to how the lock itself blocks the bolt from moving when locked, i am unsure if this is a thermal relocker or if it just releases if you try to dissasemble the lock by means of a hole drilled in the back

[Doogs]

Nice safe TW. Looks like a drop safe so if you have problems you may be able to get a borescope into the slot and see if something is blocking the bolt, assuming there's no cover plate over the lock.
http://www.aliexpress.com/premium/bores ... =y&catId=0

A photo of the inside of the bottom door/lock assembly may help some of the guys have an idea of what you are dealing with. They look like S&G's 6700 series but if you could get a make/model # for the locks that would help too. There should be a model # cast into the cover plate.

Sounds like a hardplate is between the lock and door face so it's obviously well built. I went to the Rolland Safe website but it's not loading right or half the site seems to be down so my research is minimal/non-existant. You could attempt to contact them and see if there were issues with that particular model or see if they have advice on opening. They'll probably want proof of ownership or a record of transfer though.
http://rollandsafeandlock.com/

Hope this helps but this really isn't my thing so I'll defer to the more knowledgable fellas.

[twenglish 1]

Yeah it is a drop safe, and i will not be able to use the boroscope because there is a cover plate on the mechanism, i will post a picture later of the mechanism inside the bottom door, i am going to have another go at this, gonna try to be accurate in increments of .25, will post results later along with a picture of the bottom mechanism

[twenglish 1]

Well i just finished my second attempt, i did not try oppening yet, just graphing the lock

Here are the two graphs and a picture of the mechanism of the bottom door:

in the picture of the label on the lock, you can see the cover welded over the hardplate

[jharveee]

In the photo of the back of the safe lock, looks like LA GARD logo. I have heard of drilling a hole in the back of a safe and then using a bore-scope to peer into the
Key change hole to watch the wheels, find the gates and then figure the combination out.
I have not done it.

On your graph, you seem to be taking readings every 3 numbers.? Is that correct?
Wondering if its providing enough information.
I take my readings every 2.5 numbers or sometimes when I can't seems to find what I would call a gate signature I take readings every 2 numbers.
Also AWR might help confirm a suspect gate.

I've been told wheel three will most likely read first.
Dagger's book explains a technique where you park wheels 1 and 2 in your forbidden zone and just spin wheel three around all by itself.
Might give it a try.

Daggers book is here on Keypicking.

[jharveee]

Lock looks mounted vertical Down.
Or maybe vertical up hard to tell.
That should be a help to people with more experience than me.(Pretty much anyone on this site).
Location of spline and drop in area.

[twenglish 1]

I am taking readings every three numbers i read somewhere that readings every three numbers is usually good enough for a group two lock, might also narrow that down in my next attempt, i will also post a picture of the inside of the lock, that is assuming they are both the same lock, the two dials are slightly different. i have noticed in my two attempts that the contact area where the drive cam has the slope(i have been calling this the right contact point) is the hardest to accuratly read, but also the most information seems to come from it, what i have been doing is using the side of one finger on the base of the dial with very light pressure and turning it towards the right contact point very slowly until i feel the very slight resistance of hitting the start of the slope, does anyone have a better method?

Also lock is mounted with the lock bolt facing down

[g_kinz]

2.5 is the most you should go by. and old fast says every 2. its best to take more time and make sure you get it than skip it completely and never see it . i do 2.5 and when i see something that catches my eyes il do a sweep at ever number for 10 numbers

[escapenrv]

If all else fails, you might try to drill up from inside the lower safe into the safe above and have a look with a bore scope to see if anything is in the way. If it were mine and the top would not work, I'd cut through the top of the lower safe and see if I could remove the lock and get the top door open. Any internal damage could be repaired without damage to the outside of either safe.
Just my thoughts.....
Steve

[jharveee]

You really have two safes.
The working one could be used for manipulation training.
Just needs a combo change.

The second safe that is in question of working could be used to learn "Safe-cracking".
Learn where to drill, cut and punch.
Rebuild, repair and restore.

Great opportunities!