Chubb safe

[oldlock]

That lock would be very difficult to manipulate as the drop arm doesn't have a spring on it and is gravity operated so the contact points would be very light.

Entirely correct. I've done many of them and believe me it takes a lot of work (probably dozens of hours) to master the technique. For an inexperienced manipulator I would lay long odds on failure against such a lock.

[Oldfast]

I'd love to hear more discussion on that additional piece below the lever arm.

Its' purpose? Its' interaction with the drive cam? I've never dealt with that before.

It is so the drive cam can push the bolt back instead of the wheels pushing on the fence where it may cause damage.

Ah yes, your photo of the two locks (w/ their bolts in the locked position) clears it up for me.
I can see how it would relieve the wheels from that job of throwing the bolt back out.
I can also see it would not have any affect on taking right & left contact readings.

At first, looking at the photos with the bolt retracted, I was having a hard
time visualizing how it worked. That totally cleared it up for me. Thanks Riy

[Riyame]

No problem. If you need more pics or a better explanation let me know.

[williamjcoates]

This forum is great!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the pics and explanation of how the lock works RIY. I assume that the little piece on the RCP is in a fixed position and is there to support moving the bolt back and relieve the stress on the wheel gates, and does not pivot as I had fears of. You posted a link to a safe with the polished metal spy proof dial. Well the pics I posted showing the lock with the red sticker are of the same safe. They were originally posted on reddit by a guy named Joshua who picked up the safe for the price of moving it. The safe is exact style of mine except the my dial is black. Right down to the screw on cap on the front of the dial. His safe is a "CHUBB-MOSLER-TAYLOR" While mine is just labeled "CHUBB". I believe mine is just a newer version made just after they dropped the "MOSLER-TAYLOR" designation. If there is one thing I have learned in the art of manipulation is to learn as much about your opponent as possible. So when not trying to perfect my spinning touch which is slowly improving, I was researching online. I managed to get in contact with Joshua and he was kind enough to supply me pictures of the lock with the back off which I posted here. The bolt was in the retracted position which made it difficult to visualize the movement. Thanks to your pics with the bolt extended I can now see how it would work. I asked Joshua for a another pic with the bolt extended which he said he would get to me when he could. Once I have it I will post it here as well.
I am getting more convinced that this is the type of lock I am dealing with as the gravity fed fence would explain the mushy contact points I was feeling. Armed with this new information, I feel confident it will be only a matter of time before I crack this bugger. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere though if it wasn't for all the folks here that were so willing to share the knowledge they have...Thanks......

[Riyame]

Yes, I recognized the safe as the guy is from my province and I was talking and helping him with it when he got it

The little piece does not pivot. It and the bolt are cast as a single solid unit. You do see the pin that holds the lever in place though. If you look closely at the pictures you can see the drive cam/RCP is angled/ramped so that will provide very light/mushy readings.

[williamjcoates]

Hey Guys,
I scored big time yesterday. While doing a job near Ottawa, on. I stopped into the safeworks near kemptville . This guy had a treasure trove of locks, safes, parts etc. I told him I had a chubb and was looking for a S&G 4 wheel lock vault lock. He had 5 or 6 of them lying around. The one I picked up came from a Chubb vault in a td bank. Here is the link to the photo album.
https://imgur.com/a/oL3wZ
Looking at this lock I think it could very well be the type of critter I have been dealing with. Have a look and tell me what ya think.
He even gave me two wheel packs and a change key. <:

[Riyame]

Dude, I would have loved to have been in that shop

I have a couple of the 4 wheel S&G locks but not a group 1. I wonder if the only difference is the roller on the lever/fence.

[oldlock]

As I think I observed before, do a test on a given number. Note contact. Scramble and repeat, and repeat.

if you do not get the same results each time you really are wasting your time ......

Either - gravity fence chubb vault lock = very hard.
or S&G vault lock = very very hard.
or eccentric roller S&G vault lock = v.v.v.v.v..v.v.v damn hard ..........

[williamjcoates]

Hey guys,
I know the roller makes contact with the drive cam before dropping into the cam gap. At this position the fence does make contact with the wheel pack which would also indicate a gate if over it on the high wheel. The roller is secure on the fence and dose not wiggle when spun. I would assume that the lcp would be mushy as hell while the rcp would indicate easier. It also appears the the lcp and rcp are 5-13 which is the same as my safe. I will be mounting this lock and testing it further but I am fairly convinced this is what I am dealing with. As for group one. I would assume the roller would make the contact points harder to determine but not impossible with a lot of practice. I will also test with one number and see what I get for results...

[oldlock]

The roller should rotate. The example you have on the safe (if it's S&G) may or may not be stuck. The roller may also be eccentric .....

[williamjcoates]

The roller should rotate. The example you have on the safe (if it's S&G) may or may not be stuck. The roller may also be eccentric .....

Hi oldlock, I should clarify that the roller on this lock here rotates easily but there was no play in it. What do you mean by eccentric? I heard this term before but am not positive on its meaning. Does it mean that the roller is not fixed tightly on the fence but will besides rotating, move in another direction?

[oldlock]

The hole may not be drilled (by design) in the centre of the roller. It may be very subtle, but believe me it will drive you slowly mad trying to get consistant readings while manipulating ...

[williamjcoates]

The hole may not be drilled (by design) in the centre of the roller. It may be very subtle, but believe me it will drive you slowly mad trying to get consistant readings while manipulating ...

I will definitely keep what you said in mind when I practice on this lock. I mounted it on a board and also used a heavy angle iron mount for the lock body.
http://imgur.com/AGeWJfR
Going listen to the types of sounds I get on the lcp and rcp.
I also was able to remove the red sticker on the lock body and underneath that was a small sticker with the model number of the lock.
Turns out this lock is a 6400 series S&G Group 1.
I also know that the lock was removed from a chubb vault door located in a TD bank back in 2009. As to when this lock was actually manufactured I don't know. Any ideas on this greatly appreciated.

[williamjcoates]

Hi Guys,
Been awhile since I posted but that doesn't mean I haven't been busy. I have been practicing on the 4 wheel lock I mounted and also working on my nemesis the safe. If anything I have learned how subtle group 1 indications seem to be. On my practice lock I have noted that the roller is attached central to the fence and does not wobble. It does however reduce the friction as it passes over the LCP which also has a taper on it making the touch very slight. The touch and feel of my practice lock is very similar to my safe but I have noted that the contact point gap is different. on my practice lock it is 7 points while on my safe it is 9 points which could be just wheel shadowing. Indications on both these locks is marked in tenths or even less. here is a pic of the scale I am using to indicate movement.

The graduations will indicate the slightest movement but I still think it is not enough.
As I mentioned before I decided to try a slightly different approach and only indicate the RCP. I did two graphs using a AWL and AWR approach. I was hoping you guys could have a look and tell me what ya see. I know it looks like there is a lot of variation but keep in mind the scale I am using to mark these points.

I was going to take the interesting areas and zoom in on them, marking down both lcp and rcp. I'll wait to hear back from you before I attempt this though.....

[oldlock]

How did the consistency test go ?

Also - your looking at all the wheels together ?? How about finding a general low area and then focus in on 1 wheel, say 1 number at a time. Certainly looking every 2.5 numbers is not a good idea on a lock of that quality IMO.