Old S&G Safe

[cajunshooter]

IMAG0211.jpg

I just picked up an old S&G safe from a family that has had the safe in their family for the last 70+ years. It was in their business and sometime in the 60's or 70's the husband died, and the combination was lost or more probably they just didnt use the correct sequence to open it. The safe was handed down from father to son and to another son (in-law) and daughter and they wanted to get rid of it. I bought it for $80 mainly because scrap people couldnt figure out how to move it and I had the equipment to get it done.
The family story is that the safe contains money and receipts from the store, but no real estimate of how much or the value. They also said it might contain a couple of pistols and ammo and store records. All in all probably not worth much. This is the 7th safe Ive bought with no combination and none so far have had and any valuables in them. Have gotten most of them from storage locker sales and a couple from Craigs'list.

The dial has S&G safe company on it, but there are no other markings, labels, or plaques on the safe anywhere. It is a big safe at 49" high, 29" wide, 26"deep and weighs over 1000 lbs. The lift gate on my box truck stalled twice when we were lifting it and it has a rating of 1200lbs (but is also 15 yrs old). The bolt handle on the safe is loose but will engage the mechanism when finagled correctly.

My question is: What can anyone tell me about this safe? mechanism, suggestions for manipulation, etc. I'm an amateur at manipulation, but have managed to open several others with the known techniques.
Any info you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
thanks Ron

See attached pics.

[bitbuster]

you don't have an S&G safe as they only made the locks. the handle looks Mosler-like. the hinges look like those on a Safe Cabinet. i'll keep looking in reference material to get you a better answer. others will soon be contributing,too.

[Riyame]

Well, I found nothing in my records about that safe. If you get it open without damaging the lock and dial I would be more than willing to give the lock a loving caring home

[cajunshooter]

you don't have an S&G safe as they only made the locks. the handle looks Mosler-like. the hinges look like those on a Safe Cabinet. i'll keep looking in reference material to get you a better answer. others will soon be contributing,too.

Let me know if you need any additional pics or better pics.
thanks ron

[cajunshooter]

I went out to the truck and did a quick scan of the lock and it looks (felt and sounded ) like it is a 3 wheel S&G lock. Dial was very smooth to manipulate back and forth, probably the smoothest of any safe Ive owned. Also the bolt handle didnt seem to make any difference in turning the dial when I tried to put some force and pressure on it. So am assuming this is not like the cheapie other safes Ive opened. This one I think is going to kick my amateur butt, LOL. Any safe manipulators in the North Atlanta area want to give it a try???? Ill move it to my basement this week next to the refridge where the cold beer is, LOL.

[Riyame]

The cheapie ones were likely where the handle moves something that directly interacts with the wheels of the combination lock.

What you are dealing with is something more like an actual combination lock.

While not exactly like these 2 it will likely be similar to one of them.

Some type of removable wheel pack lock like this one
http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/Riyame/library/Safe%20locks/Yale%20027%20or%20Mosler%2015

Or one that has the wheel pack in the case.
http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=10433
http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/Riyame/library/Safe%20locks/Sargent%20Greenleaf%206550

[cajunshooter]

The cheapie ones were likely where the handle moves something that directly interacts with the wheels of the combination lock.

What you are dealing with is something more like an actual combination lock.

While not exactly like these 2 it will likely be similar to one of them.

Some type of removable wheel pack lock like this one
http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/Riyame/library/Safe%20locks/Yale%20027%20or%20Mosler%2015

Or one that has the wheel pack in the case.
http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=10433
http://s1143.photobucket.com/user/Riyame/library/Safe%20locks/Sargent%20Greenleaf%206550

Riyame, any idea of what model this lock mechanism might be? It appears to be a 3 wheel S&G, but Im not very well versed on what model or number of locks was available in the early 1900's. One thing that is definitely different is that the dial has the number "100" on it instead of "0". So the dial is number 1-100 instead of the more common 0-99. I can take a pic of the dial if that might help identify the mechanism.
thanks ron

[Riyame]

There were quite a few different model numbers back then. Without having more information I cannot say for sure.

Having the number 100 on the dial was actually quite common back then.

[cajunshooter]

There were quite a few different model numbers back then. Without having more information I cannot say for sure.

Having the number 100 on the dial was actually quite common back then.

So, I have to get it opened in order to find out what lock mechanism it is, LOL. Ok, have some friends coming over tomorrow to help unload the safe off of the box truck(and stand it up, it's on it's back right now). I hope my lift gate doesnt break or get damaged with this safe. It is heavy.
I'll start the process right after that. BTW am reading "The National Locksmith - Guide to Manipulation". Lots of good info in that one. I went to local printers and had them print it and bind it for me in a loose ring style binder.

[Oldfast]

Welcome to the forum. Very nice purchase! Congrats.

Looking forward to hearing how it goes after you get it inside and find the
time to have a go at it. I'd love to come across more oldies like that one!

[cajunshooter]

Thanks Oldfast, appreciate the welcome. This looks like a great forum and I wish I had found this earlier.

If you have any info on this safe it would be appreciated.
thanks ron

[Oldfast]

Absolutely Ron. If and when I'm able to add something helpful, I'll jump right in.

I'm at a loss though when it comes to lock identification, especially in regards to the
older ones. I just haven't seen, read, or experienced enough of them yet. I'd image
Riyame is close if not spot on with some of the examples he pictured.

I guess all I can say for now is: Don't let the unidentified lock that lurks behind the dial
intimidate you. If you can feel two contact points... attack it as you would any other.

So you mentioned your previous openings (6 safes) were all of the direct entry type?

[cajunshooter]

So my experience with opening safes is not very deep. My first was a Sentry floor safe, easy to manipulate, had it open in 30 minutes. Next was an old Diebold with the door open, no combo, and the mechanism rusted and jammed, took it apart, sandblasted the parts,fixed the bent bolt mechanism, figured out the combo and sold it for 4 Xs what I paid for it. Next was my best, an old Wehrle floor safe (100+ yrs old), took a couple of hours of work to get it open. It's in my bedroom with my valuables in it. Next I bought a pair of Yale safes, 3 wheel, one open with no combo, the other took 2-3 weeks of work to get it open. They were identical, so I used the open one to learn on and get the other one open. This is when I developed my custom listening device. I used an old humbucker guitar pickup and a small amp. The pickup is great for picking up metallic sounds,, works great and is very sensitive. Number 6 was a Liberty Gun safe, the guy lost the key and the combo would not open it. I got it cheap, I had the combo, but it wouldnt open, so I tried different dialing techniques with no success and then one day it opened. HAve no idea of why it decided to open, but have not had a problem with it since. I did take the lock mechanism apart and do needed maintenance on it.

My last is the one Im working on now, antique and really big and heavy. S&G 3 wheel and Im already having problems finding contact points on it . Dial and mechanism needs lubrication (more than I have done so far) and Im having trouble deciding what is friction from the old dial rubbing and a gate/contact point. Maybe this one will take some time and work.

thanks ron

[webpirate]

#1) Do not lubricate safe locks...you are just asking for trouble..might be next week or in 50 years..but eventually dust and dirt will stick to the lubrication and make it stick..

#2) sometimes you can make the lock smooth by checking to see of the dial ring is loose. If its loose put it into a position that allows smooth operation of the lock, sometimes it means the dial ring will be off center while you manipulate it.
If its not the dial ring I have had success hitting the safe door around the lock with a rubber mallet. Be very carefully not to hit the dial.

[cajunshooter]

[quote="webpirate"]#1) Do not lubricate safe locks...you are just asking for trouble..might be next week or in 50 years..but eventually dust and dirt will stick to the lubrication and make it stick..

Ah, good point. Ok, after I get this S&G open, Ill clean it and maybe use some dry graphite???