Two combos for a Lori LC1065 lock (1 right and 1 left)

[cajunshooter]

Ok, I know people are going to think Im a little crazy or been drinking too much corn liquor, but I have an old three wheel Lori mechanism that I was practicing on and experimenting with. I found the combo using a L - R - L dialing sequence and had no trouble opening it. There is a small inspection hole in the back of the lock to allow you to see the wheels, so I decided to see if I could open it using a R - L -R sequence and low and behold I found one that worked. Is this normal for a mechanism to be able to be opened with two different combos in two different directions?? Maybe it is just a cheap little lock and the design of the wheels and flys allow it to happen???
AWR - R81 -L98(3) - R25(2) and it opens
AWL - L68 - R8(3) - L20(2) and it opens

Comments????????

[GWiens2001]

Yes. That refers to rotational conversions.

Gordon

[cajunshooter]

Yes. That refers to rotational conversions.

Gordon

Ok, so Ill show more of my newbie ignorance here. Which if either, is the correct combo? Is this common on other more precision and complex lock mechanisms??

thanks ron

[GWiens2001]

A picture would help answer that question. But either one would be correct, since they work.

It may not be that it is common practice, but it happens.

There are parts called 'flys' on the wheels of the discs. These are how the different wheels of the lock connect. There is a slight difference in numbers from when the flys pick up the next wheel, depending on direction dialed. The better locks should have no noticeable difference from one direction to the other. The cheaper the lock, the bigger the difference.

This happens even with Master padlocks!

Gordon

[Oldfast]

Ok, I know people are going to think Im a little crazy or been drinking too much corn liquor, but I have an old three wheel Lori mechanism that I was practicing on and experimenting with. I found the combo using a L - R - L dialing sequence and had no trouble opening it. There is a small inspection hole in the back of the lock to allow you to see the wheels, so I decided to see if I could open it using a R - L -R sequence and low and behold I found one that worked. Is this normal for a mechanism to be able to be opened with two different combos in two different directions?? Maybe it is just a cheap little lock and the design of the wheels and flys allow it to happen???
AWR - R81 -L98(3) - R25(2) and it opens
AWL - L68 - R8(3) - L20(2) and it opens

lol... no you're not drunk Ron. Or maybe your are, lol. But either way what you've discovered, just
as Gordon mentioned... is 'rotational conversion'. ie. pickup differences from one wheel to the next.
Gates can be aligned under the fence from either direction, but the combination will be different to
some degree in most locks. These differences are created by the widths of the drive pins and flys.

As each wheel picks up the next, the drive pins progressively stack upon each other. Like so...


So you can see why a gate will arrive underneath the fence
earlier than it previously did coming from the other direction.

It varies from lock to lock... and also from wheel to wheel within each lock. Wheel 3 (next to cam)
will have the smallest difference. Wheel 1 will have the largest (since all the wheels are being
moved in order to position it... there's more flys involved, hence more variation). It also depends
on the type of wheel you're dealing with. Wheels with moveable flys minimize (or even eliminate)
these differences. While wheels with fixed drive pins will create some very large differences.

So how do you determine these differences from the outside of the safe?
And once determined, how do you utilize these differences?

With your lock, the pickup differences appear to be: 13, 10, 5... for wheels 1, 2, 3 respectively.
If you park all wheels, then pick them up one at a time...
you can note the difference that will occur for each wheel.
You'll notice each wheel picks up sooner than where you left them.

Turn LEFT (counter-clockwise) to pick up all wheels then stop @ zero.
Now turn RIGHT once. You should feel w3 pick up @ approx. 5.
Continue around RIGHT again. Feel w2 pick up @ around 10?
Take one more turn to pick up w1, and feel it pick up at 13.

You can now dial in your combo from the other direction while taking these differences into account.
Simply stop PRIOR TO each original number by the appropriate amount (just as you've already done).
Dial towards your 1st number (81)... but stop short 13 increments before it (68).
Now for your 2nd number (98). Again, stop short... this time by 10 incs (8).
And your last number (25). Stopping short by 5 incs will leave you @ 20.


As I mentioned, all this depends upon what type of wheel you're dealing with.
Thankfully, there's only 2 types: those w/ fixed drive pins, or those w/ movable flys.
Each can be readily identified... but how you account for the differences will vary slightly.


A 'hole change' wheel taken from Manipulation #22. This is an example of fixed drive pins.

Noticeably large pickup differences will occur - sometimes by nearly 20 increments.
You'll note that wheels will pick up before reaching where you originally parked them.
Account for these by stopping short (prior to) the original # by the appropriate amount.

Then... there's the type that use movable flys...

Here's a 'mesh-change' wheel taken from Manipulation #17

Pickup differences will be much smaller - usually no more than 3 increments.
But here you'll notice wheels will pickup up after passing beyond where you left them.
Account for these differences by going beyond the original # by the appropriate amount.

Anyway, a small article could (and probably should) be wrote about pickup differences / rotational conversion.
Surprisingly, most of the literature I've seen on manipulation does not even address this topic (not even briefly)!
It's an important topic. Keep experimenting Ron. It's a worthwhile tool to have in the war against the wheels.

BTW... the idea behind a movable fly is to minimize the pickup differences... thereby maximizing key space.
Yes, sometimes they work so well that they 'zero-out' the differences to a point that you can use the same
numbers to open the lock, regardless of direction. But personally, I've only come across one lock like that.

Fixed drive pins, on the other hand, create 'dead-zones' on each wheel that cannot be used. Less key space.

Some more talk on rotation HERE if you're interested.
Keep in mind I'm talking specifically on Slaymaker padlocks.
But much of it is still relevant to what we're discussing here.

[Oldfast]

EDIT: It should be noted... I had you park at zero to keep things simple.
But... parking at say 50 or 60 would be a better choice. Otherwise you run the risk of
possibly confusing the feeling of a contact point with the feeling of picking up a wheel.

[cajunshooter]

Great writeup, Spin Master, you are da man. I tried your exercise ( verbiage in yellow) and you were dead on with the numbers. I opened the back of the Lori and for sure they use fixed pins for the flys. I've started a word document (DOPE as we call it on the shooting range) with all of the pertinent hints, kinks, and tips I find that are worth keeping and added your writeup. Thanks again for the great lesson.