1st Manipulation Ward 9007 safe on hold in learning curve

[Fritz the Cat]

Day 11

OK I'm confused . Perhaps just a little . Heres my question about the following

1+2 RA / 3 @ L70

hat means to me Wheels 1 and 2 right around and map wheel 3

Simple right ? No .

I get that w1 and whel 2 move together and w3 is stationary but forinstance if I want to start mapping w3 starting at 12 what are the dail moves ? DoIput bth w1 and w2 on 12 .)w1) 4xL to 12 3xR to 12 2xr to 70 then Left to readcontact points .Is this correct ?

I've got astackof graphs which I havr noconfidence in using . Some are a 2 flat lines. The peak at 20 won't go away when I try to park elsewhere..

Ididone graph where I fialed in 5 - 5 - xx RA and got some interesting graph features .
I guess what I ned is an exsample thats spelt out in manipulation "long hand"

meanwhile I'mreading Oldfasts safe cron's and look for an exsample in these threads.

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

Day 11

OK I'm confused . Perhaps just a little . Heres my question about the following

1+2 RA / 3 @ L70

hat means to me Wheels 1 and 2 right around and map wheel 3

Simple right ? No .

I'm in a hurry right now, but that means that wheels 1 & 2 are rotated around and the wheel 3 is stationary. In other words, that would mean you are mapping wheels 1 & 2 together, which usually happens once you have a hunch/know the correct number for wheel 3.

[Oldfast]

Looking over all your graphs so far... you're getting close.
They contain nearly everything you need for an opening.
So don't start doubting or getting discouraged.

Early on you expressed a lack of confidence in your touch
for taking readings. And now I think you're feeling much more
comfortable and gotten much better with reading CP's. Now,
I think your biggest dilemma is visualizing wheel movement.

Lemme ask you this; If you went....
4X RIGHT to 10
2X LEFT to 20
What wheel have you placed @ 20?
Which wheels remain parked @ 10?

*EACH time the # you're dialing aligns with the opening index is counted as 1X.

[Fritz the Cat]

W1 is at 10 2x the other way moves nothing soall the wheels arev still on 10
right ?

But I felt a wheel pick up at 10 1f I turn to ten twice and then to 20. So is w2 on 20 or did I feel the contact point?

[Oldfast]

Lemme ask you this; If you went....
4X RIGHT to 10
2X LEFT to 20
What wheel have you placed @ 20?
Which wheels remain parked @ 10?

Wheels 1&2 are @ RIGHT 10
Wheel 3 is @ LEFT 20

W1 is at 20 w2 at 10 , but does that include w3 at 10 also ?

I suspected you might be visualizing (or at least labeling) the wheels incorrectly; backwards.
A very common mistake when starting. As I said, I had trouble with this myself when starting.

So now the question is; are you visualizing w3 but mistakenly calling it w1...?... if so,
your rotations are still correct. If not, you're rotations are incorrect. However, your
graphs still contain very valuable information, we just need to re-evaluate them.

[Oldfast]

Wait a minute now... you've edited your post & changed your answer. lol
-1 point for Fritz!!! Just messin' with ya.

Ok, so let's do this and see if it makes sense to you. We'll put all the wheels in one place,
then pick 'em up one at a time - calling out the w# so you know what's what. Like I said,
it's possible your rotations are correct, just your terminology is off. In other words, the
first wheel you pick up, you're calling it w1, when in fact that would be w3.

And lets get the CP out of the way. We'll get away from 10 so there's no confusion.

4X RIGHT to 60 ....this places all 3 wheels @ RIGHT 60 (you already know that).
Now switch directions going LEFT. With each turn you will feel a wheel pick up.

The very first time you approach 60 you'll pick up wheel 3. This can be confusing.
Even though it's the first to be picked up, it's the last to be positioned when dialing
a combo. We call it w3 because it correlates with the last/3rd # of your combo.

Your second approach to 60 picks up w2 (BOTH w2 & w3 are rotating together now)
Keep in mind that w1 is STILL at 60.

Your third turn to 60 will pick up w1 (ALL three wheels are now rotating together.
w1 is the last to be picked up but the first to be positioned when dialing your combo.
w1 correlates with the first # of your combination.

[Fritz the Cat]

Yes , we were both on this site about the same time . I edited the post before your question post .
Your question helped now I have to choose a course of action . My graphs to this point show gate and peak features but the amount of time I would ned to decipher my mistakes I could just redo the graphs (I don't mind) with correct technique and have confidence . I'm sure I could glean good infromation from them .
I did another graph . 4x R to 67 , then L 2x to 12.5 R to CP's read next L to 15 R ti CP's Read next L to17.5 R to contact Rea ad continue . Now I'm mapping W1 and 2 while w3 is on 67 . I get a gate/hill at 17 to 20 . I'mgoing to amplify around 20 .
Now if I did another graph 4x R to 67 then L2x and another L 1x to 15 I could map w1 by itself right ?

[Oldfast]

I did another graph . 4x R to 67 , then L 2x to 12.5 R to CP's read next L to 15 R ti CP's Read next L to17.5 R to contact Rea ad continue .

R67 - R67 - AL
So you've parked wheels 1&2 @ R67 and mapped w3 AL by itself.
Your rotations look correct if that's what you were shooting for.
How did this graph turn out? What fluctuations occurred?

Now I'm mapping W1 and 2 while w3 is on 67 . I get a gate/hill at 17 to 20 . I'mgoing to amplify around 20 .

Ok. Sounds good.

Now if I did another graph 4x R to 67 then L2x and another L 1x to 15 I could map w1 by itself right ?

What you've is essentially done here is; 4X R, 3X L.

4X RIGHT to 67
3X LEFT to 15

You've place w1 @ R67 and wheels 2&3 @ L15.
R67 - L15 - L15
Is that what you're shooting for?

[bitbuster]

FRITZ, when you complete your Wards safe opening ( and you will), you may want to consider this as your next safe opening project.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/atq/5885019659.html

[Fritz the Cat]

WOW THATS HUGE ! Almost looks like it could be a stage prop it looks unreal . I imagine it as out in the open for use as it would be a shame to hide it in a back room of a bank . I wonder who the first wner was ?

Good news I finally did some graphing wher I got results I've been looking fr . Using my new level of understanding ( thanks again oldfast ) I've been experimenting . I did two graphs first in black ink the second in red on the same paper . wheelaction was 4x R to 67 L 2x to run w1 w2 and graph. Second 4x R to 67 L 3X run w1 and graph . I'll try and upload today . I found a gate on W1 at 60 !!! by running w1 by itself a nice classical gate appered out of nowhere. w2 cover the gate on w1 . I still have to amplify w1 and 2 around 15 somethong is there . I will upload graph today

[Fritz the Cat]

oops . DELETED..

[Fritz the Cat]

Here it is .The new green pencil marks correct the black ink . The lines pretty much follow each other with a definate gate at 60 . I do believe its w1 .
so now its

60 - xx - xx with numbers 17-20 and 65-67 of interest . I'm thinking what to do next.

IMPORTANT QUESTION !!

What are the rules for the "forbiden zone " I just noticed in Daggers book chap 3 firsy paragraph. He mentions w3 cannot be a number in the forrbidden zone . What about w1 and w2 . Can they have a number between 95 and 11 in my case ?

I should finish the grapf for w1 and w2 thru the zone ??

[jharveee]

LCP...................................RCP................................
_________________________ ___________________________
97 98 99 0 1.........................8 9 10 11 12
I was thinking your graph would be more laid out in this order.?
I'm a bit puzzled. Seems different than the way I'm used to.
Well, as long as you understand it and the safe gets opened..that's what matters.
You got some great people helping you. Keep at It.

[Fritz the Cat]

I lookedat the book Guide to Manipulation where Igot the graphs and you are righrt.
But I'm doing something right I think . If I reverse the numbers then the gates wouldface outwards , the other direction from where they are at , and Iam aproching the left contact with right rotation and R withl L rotation . How do I fix my graphing technique wuth the numbers I'm using .

I want to use mainstream techniques and methods .

I appreciate everyones help and patience . I figure that if I were to start this safe opening fresh but with everything I have learned I'd only would have a few graphs and several hours spent . I feel that most of my energy has been spent on a very steep learning curve. A cut away safe lock would help me see the whel action .
I'm going to study other manipulaions for a while .

[jharveee]

Some people can manipulate safes without graphing at all.
That being said, an accurate graph that shows the data you've collected can be more helpful to the persons trying to help you.
I Believe Spinners like Oldfast are able to compensate, where I'm left confused. The forbidden zone only applies to the last number of the combo. At least on my S and G 6730.
That's a good idea, getting a cut away. Or even a regular safe lock, mount it, and leave the back off so you can watch where the wheels are going and being parked.