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So is 17 still a number? Then another is now 60?
If you're sure of these numbers I would try Brute Forcing.
60-17-BF
17-60-BF
BF-17-60
17-BF-60
Although I would try some HI/LO tests to determine which wheel is 17 and which is 60.
Also assuming you amplified your numbers to find True Center.
This could lead you down the road to ALOT of DIAL Spinning. Or maybe you'll hit the Jack Pot.

jharveeeeEEEEEeee! Good to see ya my friend

FriiiiIIIIIiiiitzzzzz! You're getting AWFULLY close!

Fritz vs. Cannonball; coming soon to a theater near you

This might help me see and experiment with . Use it to position your wheel action . Perhaps paper disks on a pivot .

I starterd dialing in numbers and when I tried 60 - [18~] - [70~80[] the dial started acting weird . The contact area narrowed down to RC 5 LC less than 10 .And it felt like somethig was dragging on the wheels . Now I tried a series of numbers for the 3rd digit . i just dial inreasing 2.5 increments and read contact points . Thats a sound manipulation technique for speed right ?

I labeled contact points in ascending order like on page 25 Guide to Manipoulation . I have sveral more graphs but I'll wait a couple days before posting . The graphs look better

"the dial started acting weird" ! Can you make it do it again? Perhaps you were retracting the bolt. Did the dial come to a point where it would no longer rotate? Which direction were you turning?

CA narrowed to 5&10... I'd say you were probably in. At that point, turn the dial to the right (clockwise).
It should come to a solid stop somewhere around 85. You can then turn the handle. 'Open sesame'


Once you're this close to an opening, you'll want to run wheel(s) every 2 incs rather than 2.5.
If you're gates are almost aligned under the fence, but not quite... you can help coax the fence
to drop in by oscillating the dial within the contact area (briskly move the dial back and forth,
repeatedly striking both left & right contact points). Rattling the handle will also work wonders.

I ust read up on that technique in a friends LSS ver 2 .They calit "walking the dog" LSS ver 5 has the book The Art of Manipulation ( 1955) as part of thebook.The older version"sounds" like a reworded version of The Art of Maniplation but has much more techniques discussed and is more in depth .

The LSS ver 2 ghapter runs about 30 pages and I will sudy it in depth .

I think an opening is close ,unfortunatly I have to go to the Ann Arbor Vets hospitale andget shots in my eyes today at 10 am . If I'mlucky I'llbe back to dialing in a couple days .I'llhave my wife read any new posts to me . I'll be back . I'mtrying to recreate the weird dialing meanwhile

Best wishes.

I drove out to the VA hospial and vmy appointment wasn't in thea computer.Wasted day .

Now backto trying out sme numbers.

That's happened to me once at the Minneapolis VA.

Its funny how this happened..

My brother in law movd in next door . He isalso a Vietnam Vet like me . My wife takes care of him .Well I accidently got his mail . Oh ! Damm Igot an eye clinic appointment which means a series of shots into the eye .

Well I got there with my BIL woow Itought how convinient . Then I found out no appointment ? It wasn't untilIgot homethat Isaw the VA appointment letter ,addressed to Gary (BIL) THANK YOU US MAIL for screwing upmy day.

Oh well Noshots .I can finish this manipulation.

Coming upwith 4 new graphs following method in book "Guide to Manipulation"

Graph 4 seems to show 2 peaks close to being seem as 2 peaks with wide base
they seem to show approximatly 15 and 20 or so . I'll amplify area . There seems to be a new gate at 90 - 95 the center at about 92 .

Trouble is that the dail action [xx] - 15 - 60 .Which means I'm still unsure of my dialing technique.

Oh and the false alarm of a pending opening was traced to not doing a full 2 turns for the 3rd number before reading contacts . I believe that was the source of the weird feeling in the contact area. I'll upload graphs hopefully later today

Thanks guys for your continued interest . I wouldn't hgave been able to make it this far without you

Ok here they are I'll explain graphs in a little while.

The Top graph has my highest confidence level . I followed nan exsample in the book "The Art of Manipulation" as it is printed in the latest LSS book . It shows something going on at 60 and at 75 with the usual pile upof peaks around 17-20 . Done in 2.5 increments and going right to contact area

In the picture with 4 graphs the lower left was done incrementaly and going Left to the contact area it has my LOWEST confidence level . The other graphs are labeled like 60 - 15 - xx means I ran the graph by enteing the numbers L R L. Alsoby now you may have noticed I changed my graphing method to corespond to the method in "Guide to Manipulation" .,

I'm not a hundred percent on my graphing technniques so take my graphs tech methods with a gfrain of salt .
Manipulation of safe locks is a bit harder than I thought

I've come to a point where I want to reevaluate my progress not to pat my self on the back but to find my weakess in manipulation techniques .

1)I feel my understanding needs a lot of improment .Remedy I can think of is reviewing past manipulations or exsamples perhaps made uo secnarios of wheel position and solutions . In National Locksmith's book Guide to Manipulation they have a series of question and answers in the back of each chapter . I found some exsamples in the Book The Art of Manipulations . I just have to run thru them .
2) My accuracy needs improment . I read that the first graph easy but asyou progess into the session the increments are read stating in 1/4 but but progressing into the session you start reading in 1/8's or better in 1/10 of an increment. I have yet to start using a Vernier scale made from paper but I feel I need it along with a magnifiing glass and white needle. I just have to pick these items up . easy to do/
3) My feeling is somwhat impaired so I think some sort of electronic contact microphone hooked up to an amplifier would help .
40 It hasn't even been a month yet soseveral hours of practice a day has been benificial but the actual manipulation should only be done when I'm 100 percent awake , not tired and done in a quiet time of the day . That wouldimprove my accuacy

I'm still graphing ( mostly flat lines with graph 2 ) but until I come to a level of confidence in all ofthe above I'll hold off on graphs unless I have a specific question .

To me, it looks like there is still a disconnect with the way you are plotting your data on your graph. On your first "new" graph, 30 seems to be your best indication of a gate. See how the space between the to graphs(left CP) (Right CP) at 30 is the narrowest? The area around 17 are moving further apart.
That would indicate a very large hill or mountain on your wheel. Or the wheels in your safe are oddly shaped. If you lived a little closer I'd run over and watch the way your doing things.
What are your new graphs telling you?

In discussuins with Oldfast he mention a certain brand of safe locks made by Center Nanufacturing .A company thats been making security products for a while.

In te manufacturing process there issome flashing directly opposite the gate . There seemsto be 1 or 2 peaks at play here arund 20 and 17 . Thats twopeaksI think .

I've noticed something going on at 30 like a posible gate but when I amplify it disappears . I'm tring to recreate parts of thr grap with some accuracy but that is elusive. I'm actually hoping that its just a misake I'mmaking

A solution might be to offset the wheels by a 1/4 turn , seperating the hills and vallys . Can you set me up with a wheel action plan ? in manipulation shorthand :smile