FAQ  •  Register  •  Login
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Thu May 31, 2018 11:25 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Image

Nothing spectacular, but another fun opening from this past winter.

From what I've read, LSDA does not produce safes. Instead, their
label ends up on safes from a variety of different manufacturers.

Image

This is a straight-tailpiece lock. Both key & combo are required.
Three wheels + a drive wheel... for a 4 number combination.
The lock/key, in this case, obviously controls the fence.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Note the extreme angle of the fence. You can imagine the binding
order was quite prevalent - starting with the drive wheel, then w3,
w2, and finally w1. Due to the fence being so tilted, wheel 1 didn't
matter though. After locating 3 of the 4 gates, the fence penetrated
the wheel pack enough to retract the the bolt and pull the door open.
Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1823

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:09 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Thanks! Was the angled fence produced that way or does it look like it was bend afterwards?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

mdc5150

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 1113

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:35 pm

Post Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:50 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Great work Mike. I love the ingenuity of your laser/key setup. Simple yet brilliant.

I recently drilled a lock very much like this one because the drive pin on the drive wheel fell off. Every time I drill a safe I think our our discussions about drilling over manipulation and think to myself "well this time it had to be drilled there is no way around it."
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:59 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Hey, thanks guys.

Martin - I tend to think this bend maybe occurred over time. However, there's a real possibility it could have come straight outta the factory like this. There's a lot of low-end, overseas, imported safes out there (dunno if this one falls into that category)... but we all know they're usually concerned more with sales than security. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Matt - As you know, if I were to run into that situation, I'd have no choice but to walk away. I still LOVE the fact that you've taken the time and effort to become proficient in BOTH disciplines. You just don't see that as much nowadays. Surely you've found manipulation to be a huge help, even within some of your drilling excursions? They compliment each beautifully, no?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

castagnojohn

Familiar Face

Posts: 30

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:33 pm

Location: Alaska

Post Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:45 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

It's great to see someone really enjoying what they do , thank you for posting this. Did you impression the key too? Keep up the good work.
<<

mdc5150

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 1113

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:35 pm

Post Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:05 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:Hey, thanks guys.

Martin - I tend to think this bend maybe occurred over time. However, there's a real possibility it could have come straight outta the factory like this. There's a lot of low-end, overseas, imported safes out there (dunno if this one falls into that category)... but we all know they're usually concerned more with sales than security. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Matt - As you know, if I were to run into that situation, I'd have no choice but to walk away. I still LOVE the fact that you've taken the time and effort to become proficient in BOTH disciplines. You just don't see that as much nowadays. Surely you've found manipulation to be a huge help, even within some of your drilling excursions? They compliment each beautifully, no?


Absolutely, diagnostics is much easier when you have put in the time to learn manipulation. I just wish I had more opportunity for manipulation in the field.
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1823

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:41 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Altashot

Active Member

Posts: 424

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:32 pm

Location: Western Canada

Post Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I haven't been here much lately, so, coming into this kinda late but,
good work Oldfast! you're becoming quite the safeman!

M.
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:32 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

castagnojohn wrote:It's great to see someone really enjoying what they do , thank you for posting this. Did you impression the key too? Keep up the good work.

Hey, thanks John. No, the key was present... combo unknown.

MartinHewitt wrote:I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.

Nice. Always good to know someone like that to talk with.
Now is he also the one that sometimes refers jobs to you?

Altashot wrote:I haven't been here much lately, so, coming into this kinda late but,
good work Oldfast! you're becoming quite the safeman!

Altashot!! Certainly have missed ya around here my friend.

Thanks so much. And ya know, it's taken some years...
but I'm finally starting to feel like a safeman. :)

Still soooo much to learn though. Sometimes I want to know it all right now, lol. But most of the time, realizing I have a lifetime of learning ahead gets me excited. In fact, even after 7 or 8 yrs now, I still love it just as much. I can be anywhere doing anything, and the mere thought of manipulation literally provokes a physical reaction in me - a quick 'rise' in my stomach (like when you hit the top of a roller coaster). The end of this season was actually kinda difficult for me! I was feeling sentimental as I cleaned & packed up my tools, stools, heaters, etc. for storage. Then I became rather depressed for a while. lol

This winter was just so thrilling for me. Naturally the usual suspects - each season is speckled with a variety of Sentry safes, S&Gs, OC-5's.... but some of the more exciting experiences/accomplishments included: a floor safe sporting STAR's manipulation resistant push-in dial, a Mosler 5-H, and several S&G 6810's. I finished the winter at 34-0. Am I bragging? Mmmaybe a little, lol. Figure I best take it while I can(!) since it's unlikely I'll ever see a perfect winter again! There's always at least a few that force feed ya some humble-pie.

Anyway, I love sharing what I can of it here with you guys
(as not many people can relate). I'll continue posting more
of this past winter as I find time throughout the summer.

Thanks for having a look guys.

PS I'm curious. Are the pics too large on this latest post?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

mdc5150

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 1113

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:35 pm

Post Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:06 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I can't wait for more Mike. The pics are perfect.

By the way what is the clamp setup made of for your laser and key?
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1823

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:46 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:I am in contact with a German cracksman. He does do mostly manipulation, decoding and picking and resorts to drilling only when the damage-free methods are not possible at all or to much effort. A 3330 is on his manipulation list, a 3390 probably not.

Nice. Always good to know someone like that to talk with.
Now is he also the one that sometimes refers jobs to you?

It has not happened yet, but yes there is this option. The was so far one chance, but the potential customer seems to have solved the problem already.

Oldfast wrote:several S&G 6810's

Are they easy to manipulate?

Oldfast wrote:34-0

:crazy: You have manipulated the STAR's too?

Oldfast wrote:I'll continue posting more of this past winter as I find time throughout the summer.

I am really looking forward!

Oldfast wrote:PS I'm curious. Are the pics too large on this latest post?

For me they are not to large. I love to see details.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Sorry for such a delayed response here guys.

mdc5150 wrote:.....By the way what is the clamp setup made of for your laser and key?

Matt: Most all of it's comprised of electric related parts. My first attempt HERE. The clamp itself is for grounding rods. The U-shape cradle to hold the laser came out of a disconnect box. Both parts require some filing to get them streamlined. Additionally, the ground rod clamp is really not meant to handle much torque (first one I tried cracked) so I reinforced it with a good amount of jb-weld on the underside of each half. I've also upgraded my laser HERE, from Calpac. I like this one the best so far... though I still have some issues with it dimming sporadically. This may be due to the extreme cold I'm usually in (but I'm not really sure yet).

This clamp is pretty versatile and I'm pretty happy with it for now. But Matt, if you plan to devote much time to something like this: Honestly, I think your time might be better spent actually designing the ideal clamp that would accommodate all handles and keys, then have it fabricated.

I like my laser/mirror(s) setup. I mean, nothing amplifies reading like 20-40 ft.(!) of beam travel, lol. However, I've plans to become familiar with a magnetically based indicator as well. I think this also has its' advantages, and it's just nice to have options. And remember, we now have a third option for straight-tailpiece locks HERE - no setup time involved at all.

MartinHewitt wrote:
Oldfast wrote:several S&G 6810's

Are they easy to manipulate?

Martin: Generally, they're considered to be difficult and more time consuming, for a multitude of reasons. There's no torque on the wheel pack, the lever/rollerbolt assembly is rather loose, and naturally there's no detent ball. All this creates for an overall sloppy, inconsistent lock. Additionally, the contact points are usually quite faint/weak, sometimes non-existent at first. And the heavy, sometimes noisy dial doesn't help matters either. I used my amp on 2 of the 3 I worked on this winter.

MartinHewitt wrote: :crazy: You have manipulated the STAR's too?

Only one so far, but yes. With a decent quality dial indicator they're doable. The write-up in regards to these locks in "The National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation" is fairly accurate.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

MartinHewitt

User avatar

Prolific Poster

Posts: 1823

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Location: Germany

Post Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:Are they (6810) easy to manipulate?

Martin: Generally, they're considered to be difficult and more time consuming, for a multitude of reasons. There's no torque on the wheel pack, the lever/rollerbolt assembly is rather loose, and naturally there's no detent ball. All this creates for an overall sloppy, inconsistent lock. Additionally, the contact points are usually quite faint/weak, sometimes non-existent at first. And the heavy, sometimes noisy dial doesn't help matters either.

Then my clone is probably not a good clone. I expect it to be manipulated rather easily, because of the slight tapering of the fence. Have to wait for a dial to actually try it.

Oldfast wrote:Only one (STAR's) so far, but yes. With a decent quality dial indicator they're doable. The write-up in regards to these locks in "The National Locksmith's Guide to Manipulation" is fairly accurate.

Great! Didn't remember that lock there. Never thought this could be helpful for me.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:17 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

.

Herring-Hall-Marvin

.

Image

25" tall ... 16" deep ... and 16" wide

Both the handle as well as the arrow-shaped hinges shout HHM.
Dialing: L-R-L Right to Stop. Handle: CCW 30 degrees to open.


Image


Image

Image

T-20 label was used on safes produced in the late 1950's,
and would now be equivalent to todays TL-15 certification.


Image



Image

Given what I felt throughout the manipulation, I had some real
concerns with the lock. However, the owner, combination in hand,
seemed content enough to simply have it open. And that was that.

This is as far as I (and my camera) went. The lock no doubt
is a Sargent & Greenleaf. Likely an old version of the 6730.

Image

Indicative of HHM is the rather crudely shaped/crimped tracks for the bolt work.

Also common to HHMs is the relocker. Interestingly, the post that the relock lever
pivots on actually contains a spring-loaded plunger. When the relock lever drops
this plunger extends to 'cross-lock', or, 'deadlock' the lever. Resetting the lever
then involves disassembly of the post. A sort of 'relocker within a relocker'.


Image

:safedial: Happy Spinnin' Folks :safedial:



.


And . . . . .

It seems HHM safes were fitted with quite a variety of locks through the years.
Some of their own creations included some straight tailpiece locks. Also,
a friction fence lock, usually found on their round doors and lug doors.
Following that is a who's who list of lock makers including
Sargent & Greenleaf, Yale, Mosler, and Diebold.

Below are some photos I dug up from a couple years back,
when I serviced a similar box, but with a different lock.
Again, the signature relocker and crimped bolt tracks.

Image

Image

3 hole-change wheels, a front-mounted driver, and a unique spring-loaded lever with a round fence.
I believe they dubbed this as their own as well - though it screams Mosler to me, spare the fence.

Image

Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 2164

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:16 am

Location: Canada

Post Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:07 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Awesome updates Oldfast. Glad to see you are still enjoying working with safes.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
PreviousNext

Return to Safes, Strongboxes & Combination Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware