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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:24 pm

Other countries

I find it interesting to look how other countries do. Although I have never been there I think Argentina is an interesting country (due to my interest in hockey). So last night I researched a bit about the safe situation in Argentina. Perhaps other countries will follow, so I gave this thread a more general name.

Now to my observations based on my very basic Spanish skills:

I know from my job, that import and export with Argentina is difficult. It makes it difficult to get stuff from there (anybody here from Argentina who could forward some shirts?) and I think it also an influence on the safe market. First of all I believe the safe lock are locally made where possible. Most key locks have a slightly V-shaped key bit. (A bit like the NATO Mersey lock.) Practically every safe has that type of key lock. It is double bitted and double throw(?). It is probably in the tradition of the Spanish/Italien double bitted locks. I can't find this lock in Spain or Italy, so I presume it is of Argentine origin. I couldn't find any name for this lock. The mechanical combination locks are very often from Rench. In Mark Bates book are three Rench locks, one with manipulation protection unlike every other mechanisms I have seen. I realized only last night that Rench is an Argentine company. Sadly I was not able to find any Rench locks outside Argentina. The new safes are mostly really cheap boxes like these from China, but I believe that many are locally made, because they have this V-lock. The high end safes seem to be more solidly built safes with one or two steel sheets as walls. Can't say if the two-sheet version has filled walls. Gun cabinets are more like the real cheap stuff. A cabinet for rifles can e.g. weigh 40kg. Then there are used safes. They look more solidly built.

Now some links ... (FYI: 1 USD = 38 ARS)

Small cheap safes with V-lock:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... x13-cm-_JM
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... d-fina-_JM
This one has additinally a combination lock, which reminds me of the SERCAS lock:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... x18-13-_JM

Gun cabinet (again with V-lock):
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... -anmac-_JM

A small safe with a direct entry combination lock:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... ortuna-_JM

An older wall safe with V-lock and combination lock:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... hierro-_JM
Don't know if it is a Rench lock or not. Perhaps someone of you is able to find patent 111212. Perhaps on this site:
https://portaltramites.inpi.gob.ar/Home ... nzada.aspx

Some used safes:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... -usada-_JM
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... -60-cm-_JM
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... fuerte-_JM
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... tizada-_JM

A really big one with Rench combination locks and time lock:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... 1800kg-_JM

A really old one:
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/ML ... ntigua-_JM
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mdc5150

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Post Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:58 pm

Re: Other countries

I know very little about Argentina and it's safes. I knew the Rench time locks were made there.

The only other thing I know is that they have great grass fed beef. There is or was a steakhouse in Kuwait City called the Gaucho Grill, they served Argentinian beef and it was incredible.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: Other countries

In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:40 pm

Re: Other countries

A video about Rench: https://youtu.be/OIKGzVcXdaI

Even a vault lock like the 6400/6500. And wheels assembled with love!

I have to make a holiday in Argentina!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Other countries

Would be very nice to pay a visit to their factory, really loved what they did at S&G in Kentucky :)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:07 pm

Re: Other countries

Lever lock picking and hidden direct entry fence manipulation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6QcidGAfAs
Lever lock picking with a nice view on the lock: https://youtu.be/0YIYE-llGfM?t=144
Doesn't look difficult at all with this 2-in-2 tool. No anti-picks or so.

Oh, I want to make holidays in Argentina!
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:53 pm

Re: Other countries

I did not yet mention it ... In Mark Bates' book are three locks from Rench. The first is a standard 6700 series clone. The second is a manipulation protected version. From what I see on the photo it is basically doing what a tomahawk does, but different and perhaps only when turning the dial in opening direction. So the turning resistance is perhaps only when turning the dial right. The third lock is a combination lock with delay.

I sent an email to Roa two weeks ago asking for a European distributor (they have their website in Italian). As I didn't get a reply I wrote them with my very basic knowledge of Spanish. Well, let's see what happens.

PS: Italy and Spain would also be good candidates for this thread as they have their own lock and safe companies and tradition.

PPS: Or a really obvious candidate for you, but not for me, would be Germany. I think I will prepare a posting here for you.

PPPS: And I would appreciate it if people who are from "unusual" (i.e. not US and perhaps not UK) would write something about the situation in their country.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:45 pm

Re: Other countries

ROA responded in English and a tiny bit German. I learned from them, that Rench doesn't exist anymore, but there is a follow-up company called Cooperativa de Trabajo Cerraduras de Precisión (CDP). It is at the same location as Rench and they have a cute web site with some photos: https://cooperativa-de-trabajo-cdp-cerr ... ness.site/
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:53 pm

Re: Other countries

MartinHewitt wrote:PPPS: And I would appreciate it if people who are from "unusual" (i.e. not US and perhaps not UK) would write something about the situation in their country.

Finland: Long history of safe making dating to at least 1800's, Åbo Kassaskåpfabrik AB I think was the name of one place that manufactured safes. Then there was Kaipio Oy, which operated here in Tampere. They had a rival company called Kassakaappi Oy, which produced KASO branded safes and later on bought Kaipio Oy and changed the name from Kassakaappi Oy to KASO Oy (which it is still). At some point in history Heteka also produced some safes and also Polsa & Merivaara. Both did a lot of things from steel, but then forgotten/sold.

As far as locks are concerned, Kaipio Oy and Kassakaappi Oy both manufactured their locks by themselves, as off-the-shelf solutions were too expensive. Nowadays one runs into these oldies and there is a bunch of different ones I've seen, but most will fit a Kromer Novum key blank or similar. Later on Kaipio switched to using bought Kromer Protector locks and Kassakaappi Oy / KASO Oy also switched to imported locks.

As far as lock manufacturing otherwise, Abloy is the name here and Björkboda, which mainly can be seen from "lever" locks like 428 and 429 models. They also produce a version 2925 that is like the mortice lock but meant to be surface mount to a gun safe.

Not sure if this fell within your request, but nonetheless, not much has happened here and all of that in the past 100 years or so :)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: Other countries

It does, yes. Thank you! I will come bacl with a lot of questions later on. :)
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Other countries

When I search for Finnish stuff I understand mostly hyvää ruokahalua.

I assume the typical Finnish safe lock is a key lock? Do you have photos/links of Finnish made locks? I think the Kromer was the first German lock company to target export market and used for this mostly the Novum lock. I have read that there was a KASO model which used the Novum in reverse. To unlock the safe the lock had to be locked. So the anti-pick mechanisms were effective when someone tried to lock the safe without a key. Are there any Finnish combination locks?

You mentioned Abloy only once. So they are not interested in the safe market?

And you didn't mention Gunnebo at all. So they did not buy any Finnish safe companies?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: Other countries

Yrah, typically we have key locks, like Novum, Convar, Protector, Mauer, CAWI and BODA. These cover 95 % of all the key locks here. The rest is mixed batch of unknowns, likely made by the safe manufacturer or just procured from whatever source they had.

In a quite recent thread of mine I posted some photos of a key lock made by Kassakaappi Oy, should be easy to find. I think it was in relation to the the vault door I opened.

Didn't know about the reverse Novum, but makes sense, as I've seen all sorts of hinge mechanisms attached to the bolt of a Novum lock to operate the locking mechanism.

I don't know of any Finnish combination locks except the one on the previously mentioned vault door - that was also made by Kassakaappi Oy (confirmed from KASO by phone). Quite much worked like a Diplomat combination lock, except it had a whopping 35 number difference when switching directions.

Abloy doesn't do safe locks per say, but their locks have been used in safes. Hadak for example usually had a modified surface mount locks inside the door with an Abloy Profile B key. The key is Silca AY10P, which is basically double the length of a normal key. Kassakaappi Oy, Kaipio Oy and KASO Oy have all used Abloy Profiles with 6 discs in it on their explosive protection locks thst have been retrofitted on top of the normal keyhole (räjäytyssuojalukko in Finnish).

Gunnebo is a Swedish company I think, don't know much about them. Once seen their safe live, other than that only photos.
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Patrick Star

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Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Other countries

Yeah - I've seen safes with Abloy Classic as well. Was either Hadak or Strålfors. (Maybe Strålfors just makes the fire-proof inserts?)

I have an old, small, Hadak safe with a double-bitted 8 lever lock, by the way. I don't know any details about it. Strangely enough there doesn't seem to be an easy way to take the lock out of the door - not without drilling the rivets holding it together atleast.

Mottura is pretty common here as well.

As for regular doors, it's a lot of ASSA locks, although some others (EVVA, DORMA, KABA) have been making inroads lately.
The local pecularity would perhaps be the lever locks (7 or 9 levers, single-bitted, no curtain, no anti-pick features in most) that are frequently used where you'd use a deadbolt in the US. I have posted some gut shots of those here earlier.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:09 pm

Re: Other countries - Finnland

The thread with the KASO combination lock: viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12692

I can't find fotos of key safe locks. The new Abloy BODA mortice locks look very muck like the Italian ones.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt

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