Need help with first Manipulation/scope

[IDM]

Hi all
I just purchased a old mosler safe with a secound dropbox inside with a mosler 302-402 combo on it.
Im new to manipulation so Im out on that count. But I can scope the change key hole from the drop box opening.
I have set up my scope and found what I think are rivets and gates and given #s from the key change holes in the wheels.
This is where Im lost on what to do next.
It seems that all the gates are at the same Locations, @91-88 or 88-91 given direction.
Not sure if Im not adding the corect #'s to these for correct gate alingment, or just diling them in wrong.
Any help would be great.
I can pull some pics of my video when I get a chanch. may help in discibing what Im seeing.
Thanks

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

Well here are some basic tips knowing nothing about your lock.

Dialing from the change key hole will be a multistep process because you are dialing the wheels in reverse order.

Start by observing all details on the 3rd wheel closest to the change key hole as you spin a full turn.

You might see a change key "hole" in the wheel, might see rivits, larger openings with part of the arm that moves when you turn the change key. Then about 50 numbers or so opposite the change key hole in the wheel you will see a wider gap that should be the gate in the wheel.

Get to know what you are seeing by looking at pictures of the insides of safe locks.

What you are going to need to do is write down the numbers off the dial that these features come into view.

Once you found the gate of the outer wheel.... you will be able to see past that wheel and you will see the second wheel.

Now its a matter of carefully setting the second wheel at different incriments and always going back to the number that the gate was on with the first wheel you figured out already. (Use the gate as a window to see next wheel)

Through a careful process of elimination and determining where the gates and change key holes are on each wheel you should be able to figure out what the combination is.

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

So to recap hopefully so that it makes sense:

Watch the first wheel you see through change key hole as you spin and write down the numbers that indicate their position. You can use these numbers to come back to these features later.

Assuming you found a nice wide gate at say 60. Now try dialing say 50-0-60 which would let you see past the gate that is at 60 to observe what the second wheel looks like at the '0' position.

Then as to not confuse dialing too much by giving you short cuts. Try dialing the next test position as 50-5-60 to see past the gate at 60 so that you can see what the second wheel looked like at the '5' position.

You would repeat this all the way around the second wheel to map out what it looks like to find its change key hole and its gate.

Lets say you found the second gate at 40.

Now you could dial 0-40-60 to see past the 60 gate in the first wheel and past the 40 of the second wheel to interrogate the 3rd wheel at '0'.

Next try for example may be 5-40-60 and so on until you have mapped the whole 3rd wheel.

So lets say now you see 3 gates through the change key hole at 20-40-60

This is not the combination. It is a relative of the combination. You would have to figure out what to add to those numbers equally to get the gates to move up to the fense.

You could brute force by continuing to add 1 number at a time.
For example you could try 21-41-61, 22-42-62, 23-43-63 and so on.

This will keep the gates aligned but will slowly move them to the correct position.

Good Luck on the opening.!

[IDM]

Ok that helps a bit for sure I may have to do it that way. I was able to line up all the gates starting with Wheel 1 then 2 then the third. Noting all the #;s in that position in the key hole. But I guess what I need to id figure how to get them to line up below the fence. Is there a known # from the hole to the fence?
Thanks

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

What index are you using to line the gates at the change key hole? The 12 oclock opening index or the change key index?

[IDM]

Im using the CKH to line up the gates. I dont have any refrance to the oreintation of the lock plus I looking at the screen at a odd angle. so Im not sure where the 12'oclock index is.
You can say just start over I wont be offended. Or learm more befor I start such a thing.

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

Your doing fine.

If you line up the first gate at the change key hole... what does the number on the front dial say. What number is at the index mark at the 12 oclock position?

[IDM]

Thats the confusing part where I think I need to star over.
I started with wheel 1 with KCH lined up and #39 indicated on dial. I spun till i saw first rivet @ 48 then 64 then 84. Next I saw bottom of gate @88-92. then three more rivets @ 96,14 and 31.

I then did wheel #2 with almost the same #'s but I had changed spinning directions so the seem to be slightly diffrent.
Wheel 2 was rivets @ 30,14,96 gate @91-86 rivets @83,64,47

Wheel 3 the first rivet was at 31,14,96 gate 91-86 then rivets @ 82,63,47

If that makes any sence Ill be shocked.

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

Yeah it makes sense.

What you are continuing to see is only the wheel closest to you. The one at the back of the lock. Lets call it the first wheel. It contains the third two digit of your combination.

It sounds like you see the 'square' change key hole at #39
Then if you add 50... you see the gate at #89 (the gate will be a number or two wide)

Dont worry about the rivits.

Now. Knowing this. You can consistantly turn the dial to say #89 to see the gate cetered in the change key hole correct?

[IDM]

I know Im looking at diffrent wheel starting from the back. I can see Aluminum when all the change key holes are lined up. I took notes as i spun the first wheel. When the CKH came back up i changed directions to pick up the second wheel, then joted down the #s. Then changed directions again when the second chang hole came into view. The third wheel and the easyest to view was then recorded.
Mabey Ill record it and put it on youtube for easy review.
Thanks alot for your input.

[IDM]

Yeah it makes sense.

What you are continuing to see is only the wheel closest to you. The one at the back of the lock. Lets call it the first wheel. It contains the third two digit of your combination.

It sounds like you see the 'square' change key hole at #39
Then if you add 50... you see the gate at #89 (the gate will be a number or two wide)

Dont worry about the rivits.

Now. Knowing this. You can consistantly turn the dial to say #89 to see the gate cetered in the change key hole correct?

Correct I think if adding 50 I can see the fist edge of the gate. Its like 4 number wide

[IDM]

My other Question is Is a Mosler 302-402 R-L-R or L-R-L

[GWiens2001]

L-R-L

Gordon

[IDM]

L-R-L

Gordon

Thanks That will help!!

[Gratefuldeadbolt]

Disregard the fact that the numbers changed when you changed direction.

What you have seen is only the one wheel closest to you.

You can prove this to yourself by spinning all wheels to the left 4 or 5 times picking up every wheel... then turning right and make notes what you see.

You will see the ck hole on the wheel at say 40 then gate at 90...

As you continue going in same direction a second time... you will see the same thing... same on 3rd time around and everytime after that because the dial moves a cam that first interacts with the first wheel on the first full spin wheel one picks up wheel two and so on.

The only way you can see the second wheel is when the gate on the first wheel (90) is by the change key hole you are viewing.

You will not be able to see the second wheel move, because before you do the first wheel will begin to move again.

That is why I gave the instructions above.

At this point it is a static trial and error... you have to "set" the second wheel and the turn the first back to the gate so that you can see past the change key hole you are viewing through, past the gate at 90 in the first wheel, to see the non moving second wheel behind it.