Vintage Yale OC-5 Misbehaving!!

[CPT1911]

Hey safecrackers, I could use some help here!

So I just mounted up a vintage Yale that I acquired a few months ago--I believe it is the OC-5 model? Anyway, super cool old lock to add to the collection. I was excited to try manipulating a Yale gear-driven lock since I have read elsewhere that they are really tough.

Here are a few pics of the lock:

Yale Dial.JPG

Yale Back.JPG

Yale guts.JPG

I love how everything looks so handmade....but the dial turns waaaaay smoooth. It has that old-world, heavy feel. The lock also features a little tiny relocker that pops up and blocks the bolt if the back is removed. Looks kinda flimsy, but I am sure it would slow down someone who punched the back off:

relocker.JPG

This lock features a 'hole-type' combination change design.

Wheel Stack 2.JPG

Stack 1.JPG

Stack Apart.JPG

So I had never worked with a hole-type combination change lock--seems pretty self explanatory, I thought. But after making my first attempt to change the combo, shit got weird. I placed the flange on each drive pin washer in the hole I wanted to change the combo to. After placking the wheelpack back in the lock, I found the combination to be something completely different!

I used the little sight hole on the back to determine the actual combination in each case. It is my understanding that this hole exists on the back of some locks using hole-type combination to see what you changed the combination to IF the wheels are not numbered. But mine are numbered, so I would have assumed the combination to be what I input into each wheel--or at least close to that. Here is the view through the sight hole. You can see the right edge of all three gates in the bottom and the fence about to drop in:

Combo Sight Hole.JPG

So on top of wrong combos, in a few test cases, the normal dialing sequence did not open the lock! Instead of 4 turns, 3 turns, 2 turns, it was 4 turns, 2 turns, 2 turns!! But not in every case. The chart below summarizes what I am observing.

Yale Combo Trials.jpg

To me, the weirdest thing is that the results are not predictable. The difference between the setting for W2 and the actual is always 17 off, but the other wheels appear completely random. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, PEOPLE????! FYI the lock is mounted RH which is the norm for these, I believe.

The lock looks a little beat up--but I believe it is in mechanically excellent condition. I really can't explain this. All of the drive pin washers and wheels are numbered 1-3, so I am confident that the parts are assembled properly.

Thanks for the help!

[GWiens2001]

You need to turn the lock in the opposite direction of most safe locks. Instead of LRL, then open, it is RLR, then open.

And it is quite common for the number on the wheel to be different from what you actually need to dial.

These locks also only have one contact point. When the dial is turned the other direction, the fence is lifted off the wheels and drive cam.

Gordon

[bitbuster]

the dial sequence is 4R-3L-2R-1L. the number 1 wheel is closest to face of the door. when replacing the guts on the spindle you will have the following: thin washer,wheel 1,pin ring (for change hole),washer,wheel 2,pin ring, washer,wheel 3,pin ring, snap ring,driver ( wheel 4), spline key. the first number in combo is wheel 1.
why your new combo is not working is a mystery. i haven't encountered this problem in the oc-5's i've dealt with. seems as though you have assembled it correctly.

[CPT1911]

You need to turn the lock in the opposite direction of most safe locks. Instead of LRL, then open, it is RLR, then open.

Thanks, Gordon. I am tracking on this and have opened it several times using the corrected combo. But perhaps this explains the issue:

And it is quite common for the number on the wheel to be different from what you actually need to dial.

Maybe that's the issue then. The lock functions perfectly once I determine the combo using the sight hole in the back...

when replacing the guts on the spindle you will have the following: thin washer,wheel 1,pin ring (for change hole),washer,wheel 2,pin ring, washer,wheel 3,pin ring, snap ring,driver ( wheel 4), spline key. the first number in combo is wheel 1.

Hi Bitbuster. There are only two isolation washers on my lock. One between W1 and W2 and one between W2 and W3. I do not have one between the back of the lock and W1. It appears that the mating surface of the back is machined flat below W1 to provide a "bearing." Are you certain that I should have one between W1 and the back?

Even still, I guess that doesn't explain the combo variance.

Oh well, guess I'll have JRoe set the combos using the pin rings, then determine the true combo through the sight hole.

Thanks guys!

Trevor

[Squelchtone]

I ran into something similar that was very hard to notice when I first took apart my Mosler 5-H which was made by Yale. Mine is a mesh change wheel pack and something interesting happens, the wheels are not all numbered in the same direction or at the same location in reference to the wheel gate. I can see that in your photos as well, maybe you noticed it maybe you have not. I'm lucky enough to have my wheels stamped 1,2,3,4, not sure if yours are stamped to help reassembly. At this point it will have to be trial and error, or set it to somthing like 10 20 30 or 20 40 60 and swap the order of wheels until it opens, then set to new combo and try to open.

Squelchtone

[CPT1911]

the wheels are not all numbered in the same direction or at the same location in reference to the wheel gate.

Great point! Didn't notice that. Thaks, Squelch.

Regarding the question of wheel order--my wheels and pin rings are each numbered 1-2-3 similar to your Mosler. I wondered if perhaps 1 and 3 had been switched (because 2 would obviously have to go in the middle and there was no guarantee that the '1' meant first number in the combo). Anyway, I tried switching them and immediately noticed that the pin on #3 is too long to be against the back of the lock. That made me think that they were already in the right order. Additionally, lots of pry marks are visible around the circumference of pin ring #3 (top of stack) from when it was pried against to remove the lock ring. That also suggests to me that it has always been on the top of the stack.

Anyway, I appreciate the comments guys. For now, we'll just change the combo randomly an then determine what we changed it to with the sight hole.

Thanks!

Trevor

[Oldfast]

Trevor!!! That lock is just GORGEOUS!

Sorry I'm not of much help. Just gaulking

[Mikeh727]

Trevor,

That lock is beautiful man! I'm jealous...I've never seen one of those in person much less gotten to play with one. I can't offer any advice on the issues you're having with the combination, but I do have a question about the fence type. Gordon mentioned that it only tests the wheel pack when spun in one direction, I assume counter-clockwise. I understand that to be a friction fence, correct?

Very cool lock!

-Mike

[GWiens2001]

Yep. Friction fence.

His dial is in much nicer condition than mine, but they are beautiful locks.

Gordon

[jimmycofc]

This lock looks like the one on my safe except that mine has what I think would be called mesh wheels.

I can feel unevenness when turning the dial, and I can see grease on the wheels and dirt inside the case, so I'd like to take it out and clean it. However, I'm worried about buggering it up in the process and thus ruining the safe. I've found good pictures of wheels like mine disassembled, and I'm pretty sure that I understand how they work, but I'm very unsure about the guts, particularly the gear.

I'm posting here because I think I see something in your picture of the guts that I haven't seen it other pictures that I've found: it looks like there's one tooth of another gear visible in the gate of the drive cam. It also looks like that gear is concentric with the drive cam, and that it meshes with the more visible gear and would turn that one in the correct direction to withdraw the bolt during the last phase of unlocking the safe (once the combination has been dialed, I turn the dial counter-clockwise until the bolt opens; that would be clockwise when viewed from the back, as in your picture). So, for the first time, I think I can see how the bolt gets withdrawn, but it leaves me with some questions:

1. Is it the case that the visible gear and the lever form a single piece of metal?
2. If what I've speculated so far is true, then turning the dial counter-clockwise at ANY time will try to move the lever so as to withdraw the bolt. Then the fence would hit the wheels and jam the whole thing. Clearly, this doesn't happen, so there is something else going on that I can't see. Maybe it's that there's not a rigid connection between the hidden gear and the drive cam but the connection is somehow formed when the gates are aligned. Or maybe there's some kind of clutch that slips instead of jamming the knob.
3. There's a post that's fastened to the back that sticks up alongside the wheel stack. This must be to disengage the relocker when the back's in place. Is that right?

Can you guys fill me in on how these things actually work? This newb would be most grateful.

[Riyame]

This lock looks like the one on my safe except that mine has what I think would be called mesh wheels.

I can feel unevenness when turning the dial, and I can see grease on the wheels and dirt inside the case, so I'd like to take it out and clean it. However, I'm worried about buggering it up in the process and thus ruining the safe. I've found good pictures of wheels like mine disassembled, and I'm pretty sure that I understand how they work, but I'm very unsure about the guts, particularly the gear.

I'm posting here because I think I see something in your picture of the guts that I haven't seen it other pictures that I've found: it looks like there's one tooth of another gear visible in the gate of the drive cam. It also looks like that gear is concentric with the drive cam, and that it meshes with the more visible gear and would turn that one in the correct direction to withdraw the bolt during the last phase of unlocking the safe (once the combination has been dialed, I turn the dial counter-clockwise until the bolt opens; that would be clockwise when viewed from the back, as in your picture). So, for the first time, I think I can see how the bolt gets withdrawn, but it leaves me with some questions:

1. Is it the case that the visible gear and the lever form a single piece of metal?
2. If what I've speculated so far is true, then turning the dial counter-clockwise at ANY time will try to move the lever so as to withdraw the bolt. Then the fence would hit the wheels and jam the whole thing. Clearly, this doesn't happen, so there is something else going on that I can't see. Maybe it's that there's not a rigid connection between the hidden gear and the drive cam but the connection is somehow formed when the gates are aligned. Or maybe there's some kind of clutch that slips instead of jamming the knob.
3. There's a post that's fastened to the back that sticks up alongside the wheel stack. This must be to disengage the relocker when the back's in place. Is that right?

Can you guys fill me in on how these things actually work? This newb would be most grateful.

Feel free to create your own thread and include some pictures. This may lead to helping others in the future and we all like to look

I do not have one of these specific locks so I cannot answer your first 2 questions but the answer is yes for your third.

[GWiens2001]

Question 1... No, the lever and the gear are not a single piece. The lever should be able to move independently of the gear. The hole in the center of the lever also has a groove, in which there is a small, bent strip of metal. That strip of metal works like a clutch, allowing the gear to turn independently from the lever once a certain, light torque is reached. Until that torque is reached, the lever will move with the gear. Sometimes corrosion or dirt will lock the two parts together, causing failure to operate correctly.

Question 2... Yes, when turned one direction, the fence rides on the drive cam until it reaches the gate. If the gates for the wheel pack are in the correct position, the fence then drops into all the gates, and further turning of the dial will retract the bolt. Turning the dial the other direction extends the bolt, then lifts the fence off the drive cam. Therefore, you will only have one contact point when manipulating.

Add the fact that you can, with a sensitive touch, feel each gear tooth touch, it is a bugger to manipulate.

Currently working on repairing one of these locks that was drilled open. Then it could be a good practice lock for someone. It came off the lower door of a Mosler cannonball safe.

Gordon

[Oldfast]

......Add the fact that you can, with a sensitive touch,
feel each gear tooth touch, it is a bugger to manipulate....

I've yet to battle a gear-driven/friction fence lock
But I thoroughly welcome a good ass-kickin'
Gonna have to spend some $ one of these days.

[Riyame]

......Add the fact that you can, with a sensitive touch,
feel each gear tooth touch, it is a bugger to manipulate....

I've yet to battle a gear-driven/friction fence lock
But I thoroughly welcome a good ass-kickin'
Gonna have to spend some $ one of these days.

That S&G offset vault lock I sent you is a gear driven

[Oldfast]

True, lol. A lock with a nice old friction-fence is what I should say.

BTW, have some ?'s for ya on that vault lock before it goes to the chronicles.
Well, that and it needs a better more permanent mount before her photo shoot.

*anyway, more suited for a pm or different thread.... on a different day.