Start somewhere

[jharveee]

Thanks Oldfast and flywheel.
I will Amplify the result(12,56,65)
My graphs, except for the reading at 56 are very different looking.
In my mind I was thinking they would be more similar. Is this my lack of taking consistence readings?
Thinking maybe to do another graph with AWL and putting it over the top of the first. Hold them up to the light to see if I get same readings.
It Sure is a lot harder with the back of the lock back in place.
And not knowing the combo.

was wondering If it would be easier to learn manipulation one wheel at a time, like lockpicking(one pin at a time and increase).
Set the combo to 50-50-50(one gate) then graph it(AWL) . Should be easy to spot the gate.
then 25-50-50(two gates) graph it AWL.
then 25-60-50(three gates)graph it AWL.
compare the three graphs.

If any of that makes sense?

Thanks again,
Back to the wheel!

[mercurial]

It isn't possible to tell if you are graphing consistently & accurately by looking at those graphs, because it is quite common for a gate's signature to look different to what you see around 56 on you last graphs. There is a great description of how gates can appear here, under the heading "failure to recognise a good indication" : http://www.safeventures.com/news.php?news_id=16

It would be a good idea to do a new AWL or AWR graph of the lock to compare to your existing graphs, because it will be a good indication of whether you are taking consistent readings. Once you are able to run a graph twice & get the same results, it really helps you to put faith in your readings.

With respect to learning by graphing one, two and then all three wheels, I don't think this would be very helpful.

If you have all gates on the same number, you won't get a gate signature on your graph, the fence will drop in when you get to the gates & the lock will open.

When you are graphing with two wheels set to the same number, you could actually complicate things, as high low tests will give strange results & the effect of rotational conversion will negate the fact that two wheels are set to the same number - if wheels 2 & 3 are both set to 50, you won't have both wheels under the fence if you dial both wheels to 50 in the same direction, W2@L50 W3@L50 is different to W2@R50 W3@L50.

Once you can take consistent readings, the skill of manipulation lies in interpreting graphs, deciding what to do next based upon your graphs and past experience & knowing how to move the wheels to accomplish your next step - you really need all three wheels in play to do this.

One common way to make things easier whilst learning is to bend the fence slightly, so that you know the lock will read wheel 3 first, then wheel 2 & finally wheel 1 . Bending the fence also makes the graphs a lot easier to read.

Hope that helps,

...Mark

[femurat]

I agree with Mark about the importance of consistency. In fact consistency is the key to open a safe (pun intended).
That said, I understand your point in wanting to learn one step at a time.
Bending the fence would ruin the lock... Try this instead: ask the wife the first number of the combination. Dial the first number and then proceed with your manipulation normally. Don't forget to put the first wheel back on its gate if you move it. This way you only have to test two wheels instead of three. It should be a lot easier this way.

Good luck

[mercurial]

The idea of starting a manipulation with one known number in the combination is a good one! If you end up doing this a few times, I'd suggest varying which wheel contains the known number, so you get extra experience in working out how to park the wheel with the known number. Another variation to add a bit more difficulty would be getting your wife to tell you one number of the combination, but not which wheel it is on.

I agree that bending the fence is ruining a lock, but this is a well known and time tested aid to learning manipulation. You end up with a lock that shouts clear information at you, as opposed to the cryptic whispers of some locks. The indications are large, there is no shadowing to contend with, high low tests work well & the whole manipulation process works as described in a textbook. It also gives you much better odds of a success & this is a great confidence booster. I'd say it is worth considering if you can afford to sacrifice one lock to make a learning aid.

I haven't tried it, but a non-destructive alternative to bending the fence would be putting some sticky tape around the fence, and making the layer of tape progressively thinner along the length of the fence. This should achieve the same thing as bending the fence, without ruining a lock. You can have some control of the degree of difficulty by altering the degree to which the thickness of the tape layer differs across the length of the fence, too.

...Mark

[jharveee]

Thanks for the tips.
My wife has already confirmed that 57 is one of the numbers.
Boy,.......don't tell her any secrets!
She didn't tell which wheel and I am still going to amplify my current results.
And run Hi-lo,
isolation,
and maybe figure my rotational conversion to find which wheel my gate is on.
Thanks

[GWiens2001]

Agree with flywheel. 57 looks great, with 5 looking good, too.

Gordon

[jharveee]

jul 22 009.JPG

OK.
So we found that 57 is the third number of the combo on wheel three.
Now I'm looking for another number,
New graph is Wheels 1 and 2 around right Wheel 3 at 57.

I'm focused on the area between 35 to 50.
Wondering if that would be your area of interest?

I Have amplified this area, but still can't pin down a number.
I Graphed 35 to 50. Wheels 1 and 2 AR/3@57
I did it every two numbers( evens)
did it again every two numbers(odds)
Still confused.
Graphed every number between 35 to 50.

Perhaps I am not looking in the right area.

[jharveee]

jul 22 015.JPG

jul 22 014.JPG

jul 22 013.JPG

[jharveee]

couldn't take it.........had to ask my wife.
Its 38.
couldn't find it....knew it was in there somewhere. I was looking at 47 too hard cause it was at the drop reading the graph from left to right.

After she told me it was 38 not 47, I went on to brute forcing. Learned you shouldn't assume that when you find the second number
that it would be on the 2nd wheel.

spun myself silly only to find that 38 was not the 2nd number of combo.

Well anyways, after a ton of spinning the lock opened on 38-18-57.

[mercurial]

I wouldn't have found 38 or 18 on those graphs, either. Any good indications are being lost to masking.

Therefore, instead of amplifying any of that graph, my next step would've been running either wheel 1 or 2 in isolation, with the other wheels parked at L57, or run either wheel 1 or 2 in isolation, with the other wheel parked at R25(a low spot from your W1&2AR graph) and wheel 3 at L57. I would choose to isolate wheel two first, because statistically it is most likely to indicate next. Your assumption that wheel 2 would be next to indicate may well be correct, the gate at 38 wasn't found by an indication, so we don't know which wheel would've indicated next.

Another approach would be to graph wheels 1 & 2 around left, with wheel 3 parked at L57. I suspect this might help in this instance, because looking back at your first AWL graph, the gate at 38 is visible, and on the AWR graph, it is not. The gate at 18 is also visible on the AWL graph - the indication is at 20, but rotational conversion accounts for that.

I look forward to following your next manipulation, should you choose to post it.

...Mark

[jharveee]

Thanks Mark,
I'm new at this , so quickly I ran out of options.
Haven't changed the combo yet.
Going to go back and try some of your ideas.
Thanks agian

[GWiens2001]

was seeing 25-30, and possibility at 13-17. That range from 37-47 seems awfully wide. Very promising, but since your amplification results were not indicating very well, might have parked one of the two wheels there, then tried the other two ranges I listed.

As you gain more experience, you will find your fingers getting more finely tuned to feeling the contact points, and your readings will be better. Unfortunately, have not been doing a lot of spinning. But that should change soon, once the garage is taken care of.

Good posts, good questions. Keep it up!

Gordon

[jharveee]

S&G 6730 Graph 1, AWR, attemp 5.JPG

S&G 6730 Graph 1, AWL, attemp 5.JPG

Here I go again.
Sometime I fear I will never get the hang of Manipulation.
Had the wife reset the combo, So I don't have a clue.
Graphed AWL
Graphed AWR
I run the graphs both ways in hopes it will make up for my inconstant dialing.
Have my eye on the area between 32-42.
75 looks possible.

Anyways, I need help analyzing what I have graphed.
Then I will go back and Amplify.

[mercurial]

You will get the hang of it.
You are doing well, don't get discouraged & just keep up the practice!

If you feel your readings are inconsistent or inaccurate, then you should focus on that first.

Practice reading and graphing the contact points until you can graph the same lock twice & get exactly the same results. If your readings aren't accurate, you will find yourself in a world of hurt. Nothing will make up for inconsistent readings.

Once you can be confident of your readings, the whole process will be so much easier. It can take only a few bad readings to render a whole manipulation futile.

You can get proficient at this process. You'll develop a refined & accurate touch by being consistent :

Always grip & turn the dial in a consistent manner. Slowly and gently approach the contact points, using the same amount of force & the same grip on the dial every time.

Make sure your eye is in the same position when you take your readings - right in front & level with the opening index mark, to avoid parallax error.

Read the increments consistently. Set the dial to 50.5 & remember what a half increment looks like - that's easy. Then place the dialling index halfway inbetween 50 & 50.5. Remember what a quarter increment looks like. It helps a lot if you pay attention to where the edges of the dial markings & the edges of the index line are. Now set the dial to 50.125 & study the edges of the markings again to help memorise what an eighth looks like. Repeat this for all 1/8th divisions of an increment. If the increment marks on the dial near the contact points aren't well defined by the paint, use some whiteout to fill them in properly & do the same for the opening index, if needbe.

And finally, take your time - accurate readings will get the lock open & dialling speed will come with practice.

As is obvious & very common, the AWL & AWR graphs are different, I would focus on the one that has the clearest indication - in this case I would choose the AWL graph.

Based upon your AWL graph, I would amplify the area around 32.5. I usually graph from 5 or 6 numbers above & below the area of interest, so in this case that would mean amplifying AWL from 27 to 37.

You have a good indication around 32.5, so it's best in my opinion to keep things simple & investigate that, before focussing elsewhere. If you find a gate there, you can then gain a lot more information regarding the other two wheels in your next graph.

The area around L45 & L10 also look like they may have potential, but as I said, I would focus on the area around 32.5 first.

Before doing this, consider running the AWL graph again & compare it to the original. There is little point in drawing conclusions & making decisions based upon inaccurate readings.

I'm surprised to see how much the left contact point moves about. The left contact point does generally (but not always) move in sync with the right contact point, but due to the shape of the drive cam gate, the variation in readings of the left contact point is usually a lot smaller compared to the right contact point readings.

When dealing with locks that have differently shaped drive cam gates and/or different shaped lever noses, this situation is sometimes reversed. The Diebold lock in Oldfast's "chronicles" thread is a perfect example of this.

Hope that helps, and I look forward to seeing your progress!

...Mark

[jharveee]

OH!........Thar's my problem.
My safe lock has SPOOL WHEELS.
Struggling with taking accurate readings.
I get counter rotation,
Slowly approach contact point.......make contact.....release pressure.....Dial rotates back 1/4 increment.
Happens more so on the left contact point.
Right point drags to a stop.