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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
Lock-Goblin-Gordon

Posts: 3795

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:05 pm

Location: Arizona, United States

Post Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:52 am

Re: Start somewhere

The shape of the drop in point of the drive cam is different from side to side. The shape, in the top of the contact area, is more like this:

|______/

That is why your right contact point comes to a fairly solid stop (which measures the more vertical side on the left), and does not 'counter rotate' when you release pressure, but the left contact point (which measures the sloped side on the right) can ease back as the fence slips back down the slope. That also shows why your right contact point has significantly less variation in contact points than the left contact point.

With practice, you will develop a lighter touch and will be able to stop turning for the left contact point when the fence first contacts the sloped angles.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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jharveee

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Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:09 pm

Re: Start somewhere

Went back and did three more graphs.
First graph, AWL.
Second graph, Wheels 1 and 2 at 17. Wheel 3 Around Left.
Third graph, AWL.
32.5 kept indicating.

Dialed 32.5L - 32.5R - 32.5L
Opened up the back and took a peek.
32.5 is partly under the fence, not centered.

Closed the lock back up.
Will move on to amplifying to find true center of gate.

Now have three 1st graphs AWL. Same lock. Same combo. Same day.
When I compare them.......I would like to see carbon copies.

I hear the voice of Pat Morena(karate Kid).

"Show me Dial the lock left."
(wave hand in the air, circular motion)
"Show me Dial the lock Right."
(wave hand in the air, circular motion)

"You have much work ahead."
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: Start somewhere

jharveee wrote:....Sometime I fear I will never get the hang of Manipulation....

Very exciting times starting out, but it's also easy to get discouraged. Don't be. You're doin' great my friend!
I'm sorry I've not chimed in a whole lot. But you can bet I've been keeping an eye on your progress.
I've read & re-read your first two manipulations, and the start of your third. And I WILL say this.....

Many of the difficulties you're having mirror that of mine when I started. Perfectly normal learning curve :yep:

Manip #1... You did great fining a gate w/ an all wheels rotation, honing in on it, and tagging it to w3.
Then, running wheels 1 & 2, you found another gate.... but then had some troubles with hi/low testing.
Femurat's comment - placing w3 on it's known gate during your test configurations hopefully made since?

Manip #2... Tricky! It's no surprise you had some trouble finishing that one up. By the time you were searching
for a second gate you encountered some shadowing. More than likely, w1 had a slightly higher area which kept
the fence from touching w2 as its' gate passed by - hence it didn't show up on your graph. Solution would be to
'park' w1 in an area that DOES allow 2 to be read. So you'd park w1, run w2 around & place w3 on known gate.
This will come with time though... no worries. Nice job.

Manip #3... Mercurial said it all! Took the thoughts right outta my head, lol. Your AWL graph has produced enough
to where I'd be temped to run some trial combos. However, I'm with Mercurial... keep it simple and focus on your
best indication first. Amplify the area, find true center, and tag it to a wheel. THEN investigate the other areas.
Also, not a major concern, but I too am surprised with the amount of fluctuation you're receiving from the LCP.
In some cases it seems to be even more drastic than the RCP. Normally it's the RCP that gives us more info.

I echo the suggestions given by others. Wheel positioning as well as consistent readings are crucial & worthy of your time.

Do you find you're lost within the wheel pack at times? Wonder if you need to take one more turn? Or took one too many?
If so, spend some of your sessions on just this. Move through the wheel pack until it requires little thought and no doubt.

Your touch for contact readings is still developing and will get more & more refined over time.
Here, just as Gordon eluded to, is the drive cam gate with two very differently shaped sides.
People use varying terms, but for me the lever nose is currently touching the RIGHT CP.
ie. In order to take my RIGHT contact reading... I turn the dial LEFT (counter-clockwise)
So on the lock you're currently working with, 13 is what I would consider your RCP.

Image
You can see why this more gradually sloped side would offer the most fluctuation / information.
If, as you mentioned, your dial is drifting back slightly after contact, then you're still a little heavy handed.
Consistency, by far, is key though. You and I may have slightly differently looking graphs for the same lock -
but as long as we each maintained a very particular approach for every reading, our findings will be the same.


A great way for gauging your accuracy, as you've already found, is to compare duplicate graphs.
However, for improving your accuracy, you might consider working through a mirror. Is this cheating?
No! You are TRAINING. You're training your mind, hand, and eyes. Spend some hours with the mirror.
When the cover plate is back on, your mind's eye will take over & I guarantee your touch will have improved.

Image Image

I can't even begin to guess just how much time I've spent peering through this mirror, lol.
And it's actually more than just a great tool for beginners. I've used it to peek up the skirts of
nearly every one of the locks in my collection. Yes, the interaction between the drive cam and
lever are basically the same for most locks. But you'd also be surprised to find some of the very
subtle differences exhibited from one lock to the next. Even locks of the same make and model.


p.s. It wouldn't hurt to post a photo of the lock you've been working with. Looking at your graphs, it would appear
it's probably been mounted correctly and functioning properly. But learning manipulation is difficult enough as it is...
the last thing you want is to tryn' learn on a faulty lock. When you push & pull the dial, is there much in & out play?
How's the drive cam? If you hold it stationary with one hand & turn the dial lightly back & forth with the other.....
is there any play between the cam & spindle? Be sure the spline key is solidly holding the two as one solid unit.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

jharveee

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Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:25 am

Re: Start somewhere

First off,
Thanks to all the members that have taken an interest in my quest.
Still working on this manipulation, just at a point where I could pause and take care of some other things.
Time got away from me today.
I'll post some photos of my lock next.

It's a Brand New S and G 6730
Only one I have ever had or mounted.
No Alignment tool.
Eye ball only.
1x6 birch wood W/glue and screws.
Has some in and out play.(This has bothered me from day one)
Spline key, one more turn is 5 degrees to tight, so I backed off as suggested per instructions.
Rotates freely both directions.(Doesn't rub)

I noticed some wear marks on the drive cam at the Control points, hope to get a photo to post.
Thanks :smile:
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VancouverSpecial

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Active Member

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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:29 am

Location: Vancouver, BC - Canada

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Start somewhere

Great thread fellahs!
Learning lots just following along.

Oldfast - where did you get the mirror and/or what's it called? I've been searching Amazon and find mostly shaving/makeup mirrors.

Have a great weekend everyone :)
Sean
<<

GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
Lock-Goblin-Gordon

Posts: 3795

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:05 pm

Location: Arizona, United States

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:58 am

Re: Start somewhere

jharveee wrote:First off,
Thanks to all the members that have taken an interest in my quest.
Still working on this manipulation, just at a point where I could pause and take care of some other things.
Time got away from me today.
I'll post some photos of my lock next.

It's a Brand New S and G 6730
Only one I have ever had or mounted.
No Alignment tool.
Eye ball only.
1x6 birch wood W/glue and screws.
Has some in and out play.(This has bothered me from day one)
Spline key, one more turn is 5 degrees to tight, so I backed off as suggested per instructions.
Rotates freely both directions.(Doesn't rub)

I noticed some wear marks on the drive cam at the Control points, hope to get a photo to post.
Thanks :smile:


It is a little work, but nothing beyond you, to correct that slight in/out play. Get four washers and file them down to be just a little less than your thread pitch. Remove the spline key, and unthread the spindle a little bit. Then loosen all four mounting bolts so the lock body can be shifted around. Now remove one of the mounting bolts, pull the lock body outwards so there is a slight gap, and slide the washer in between the lock body and the mounting surface. Reinstall that bolt lightly, and repeat until all four washers are installed, one to each bolt. Then tighten the mounting bolts. Now when you thread in the spindle, it will not go in quite as far as it did before (by the thickness of the washer). Since the thickness of the washers is less than the thread pitch, you will have less slop in the dial.

Good luck,

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
<<

jharveee

Prolific Poster

Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:09 am

Re: Start somewhere

I Believe it was the National Locksmith on Manipulation that said to "pull the dial out" prior to taking readings.
I seem to get better readings when I push the dial in. It Does make a difference. Perhaps I'm not consistence.
Anyways, You're right. I need to fix the problem. Just so I can eliminate the confusion. Even if it's In my mind.
Thanks
Last edited by jharveee on Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jharveee

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Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:38 am

Re: Start somewhere

SG 4.JPG

SG 3.JPG

SG 2.JPG

SG 1.JPG


Areas of concern?
At the tips of the control point on the drive cam.
Right there,.......See them? the shinny wear marks.

If I were to Shim the back of my lock, Should I wait till after I finish this manipulation?
As always, comments and questions welcome.
Thanks
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Mikeh727

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Contributor
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:57 pm

Location: Webb, Iowa, USA

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:45 pm

Re: Start somewhere

Great replies on this thread!

Gordon is right about fixing the play in the dial, but there is one other work around that you can use short term since you're only using this lock for practice.

Remove the spline key and tighten the drive cam on the spindle just 1/4 of a turn. Then, reinsert the key in the wrong orientation slot, which will be VU or VD. This will move your contact points 1/4 of the way around the dial, and will also change the combination that opens the lock by 1/4 of the dial for each number. BUT, it will take the slop out of the dial as well, and allow you to manipulate the lock without worrying about the inconsistency introduced by a loose dial. If 1/4 turn doesn't do it, then try 1/2, then 3/4.

I did this on one of my practice locks until I tried what Gordon suggested as a more permanent fix.

-Mike
I have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Beyond that, not so much.
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jharveee

Prolific Poster

Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:20 pm

Re: Start somewhere

Thanks Mikeh727,

I'm gonna bite the bullet and take it apart and shim it as mentioned.
I feel it will be better in the long run.
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:28 pm

Re: Start somewhere

I wouldn't concern yourself all too much about the wear on the cam.
Take a look at this one from Manipulation #8, LOL.

Image

Looks like it's had several long conversations with multiple auto-dialers. lol

Nevertheless, it did not seem to affect the manipulation process much. I found it did take a
slightly lighter touch in order to get consistent readings. But other than that, no problems.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jharveee

Prolific Poster

Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Re: Start somewhere

So you're saying "There's a chance."?
That's one ugly drive cam.(Oldfast) :smile:

Should have my lock dialed in Monday afternoon.
Back spinning that evening.
Graph #2
Wheel 1&2 AR / W3 @ 33.

That's The plan anyhow.
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Start somewhere

VancouverSpecial71 wrote:Oldfast - where did you get the mirror and/or what's it called? I've been searching Amazon and find mostly shaving/makeup mirrors.

You're on the right by searching for shaving and/or makeup mirrors.
My Grandpa had purchased that one years ago for shaving.
Where he got it though, I have no idea.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

jharveee

Prolific Poster

Posts: 999

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 am

Location: San Marcos, Ca.

Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:57 pm

Re: Start somewhere

Manipulation #11 D.JPG
Manipulation #11 C.JPG
Manipulation #11 B.JPG
Manipulation #11 A.JPG
First Successful “OPEN”
No cheating, help or hints.
Lock opened on 27-62.5-41
True combo 27-63-41 Set by My wife.
Found 41 on wheel 3 by parking wheels 1 and 2 on 9( middle of the forbidden zone). Rolled wheel 3 around left by itself, checking right contacts points only. No graph. Found an indication at 40. Amplified results and found 41 center of gate. No need to do High-low test.
Next, I found 63 on wheel 2 by parking wheel 3 on 41 and taking wheels 1 and 2 around right(graphing). Got indication at 62.5, kept graphing and found a low area 12.5 – 27.5. Amplified results, found 63 center of gate. Performed high-low test to determine 63 on wheel 2.
Before going on to Brute Forcing wheel 1. Wasn’t totaled sold on 63. I Decided to Map wheel 2 by itself. I suspected there might be a gate in the low area I had just graphed.
I parked wheel 1 on 27 which is just at the drop in the graph. Spun wheel 2 around right. Wheel 3 at 41. Soon as I got to 62.5…KER THUNK. Felt the nose drop in, turned to the right and OPEN!
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mercurial

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Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:11 pm

Location: Australia

Post Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: Start somewhere

You've put a lot of work into this, very well done!
Isn't it a great feeling when everything finally falls into place?

...Mark
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