Group 1 Manipulation Proof Sargent & Greenleaf

[Josephus]

You do know that there are now viable techniques for manipulating these ......

No, I'm not going to post here (or anywhere else) how it's done. However it can be done, and sometimes quite quickly, so worth thinking about .....

I see one way to discern the combination through manipulation. Seems somewhat obvious to me so I may be missing something. Would be time consuming in that some of the normal shortcuts can't be used and it requires an extra step. Since we aren't sharing I'll keep it to myself.

[Mcof]

The mechanism that drops the fence on the newer 8400 uses an extra slider and a spring to turn the knob into a sort of digital switch. It does limit the speculation a bit.

[mercurial]

The mechanism that drops the fence on the newer 8400 uses an extra slider and a spring to turn the knob into a sort of digital switch. It does limit the speculation a bit.

Ever since I looked at the design of this lock (I've never handled one in real life), I have wondered if the wheel pack could be measured by listening/feeling when the movable part of the drive cam touches the lever nose by playing with the knob in the centre of the dial & measuring how far the little knob in the centre of the dial needs to be turned to break/create contact between the lever nose & the movable part of the drive cam...

This always seemed too simple & obvious to be true, given the whole & sole purpose of the mechanism in question is to prevent measuring the wheels!

Surely I'm not on the right track?

...Mark

[oldlock]

The mechanism that drops the fence on the newer 8400 uses an extra slider and a spring to turn the knob into a sort of digital switch. It does limit the speculation a bit.

Ever since I looked at the design of this lock (I've never handled one in real life), I have wondered if the wheel pack could be measured by listening/feeling when the movable part of the drive cam touches the lever nose by playing with the knob in the centre of the dial & measuring how far the little knob in the centre of the dial needs to be turned to break/create contact between the lever nose & the movable part of the drive cam...

This always seemed too simple & obvious to be true, given the whole & sole purpose of the mechanism in question is to prevent measuring the wheels!

Surely I'm not on the right track?

...Mark

Your right, your not on the right track .......

[escher7]

You do know that there are now viable techniques for manipulating these ......

No, I'm not going to post here (or anywhere else) how it's done. However it can be done, and sometimes quite quickly, so worth thinking about .....

Tease!!

[oldlock]

Just in case anyone is suspicious that I'm twisting everyone's tail here for something that can't actually be done :

http://www.lsieducation.com/courses/group_1.html

[Riyame]

Just in case anyone is suspicious that I'm twisting everyone's tail here for something that can't actually be done :

http://www.lsieducation.com/courses/group_1.html

I believe a lot of people know it is possible. Just most that are into manipulation have not had a chance to play with a MP lock yet or have discussions about them.

[flywheel]

From auction thread:

Irrelevant question:
Are these locks manipulation proof or just really hard to open?

Edit: I see from the link that there may be a technique to open it but oldlock is not talking.

I am interested in knowing the answer to that as well.

The lock is designed to have zero dial feedback during normal operation. There are no contact points between the cam and lever nose. The cam's movement is limited by a track in the back plate when in the open position. Manipulation requires contact points or some sort of aural or tactile feedback in order for non destructive entry. A company does not stamp their safe locks "Manipulation Proof" lightly.
If there is an NDE method for these locks that only requires a light touch, a sensitive ear, and a pencil I would love to know it.

[mercurial]

If there is an NDE method for these locks that only requires a light touch, a sensitive ear, and a pencil I would love to know it.

I don't know what the method is, but if oldlock says that these locks can be manipulated, then you can take that as gospel. He knows exactly what he is talking about & is very knowledgable.

...Mark

[socaldevin]

I just took Harry Sher's class on manipulation yesterday and he briefly touched on the technique to open those by manipulation. He said he has opened a couple in under 10 minutes.

[jharveee]

Socaldevin, Are you at Clark's Security Expo? Disneyland?
I was going to take that class.
Wonder who else is here.

[lockout1]

Hi regarding part of your question as to wheather you can open s&g group 1 mp locks by way of manipulating the answer is yes in the trade they call it advanced manipulation and suppose it is. These locks are awkward as you may have to keep going back to check I have a 2937 and when you do figure out how to manipulate them it's quite easy trust me you would be surprised. I won't reveal the method because I had to figure it out for myself. My next group1 lock I'm getting will be lagard but I'm sure I will be able to do this make using the same method

[tomjones]

If there is an NDE method for these locks that only requires a light touch, a sensitive ear, and a pencil I would love to know it.

This is not a secret.
Read the book: Marc Weber Tobias: Locks, Safes and Security
It is there described in 3 sentences how it works.

[flywheel]

If there is an NDE method for these locks that only requires a light touch, a sensitive ear, and a pencil I would love to know it.

This is not a secret.
Read the book: Marc Weber Tobias: Locks, Safes and Security
It is there described in 3 sentences how it works.

Am I missing it? Chapter 36 4.5.2 briefly mentions a machinist dial indicator touching the dial. This might give indication on how to approach a different type of group 1 lock but read in context the passage isn't referring to the safe lock in this thread.