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Fireproof safes

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scudo

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:14 pm

Fireproof safes

I am hopefully getting a `free` safe, I say safe but the guy has said he can lift it when its unbolted, its 55 x 50 x 72 cms. Its coming from a Post Office and it is used to store currency overnight so I assume it must have some security/fire rating. Unfortunately I cant get further info until I collect it. Anyhow on assuming it has a 1 hour fire rating, if I then place a money box in it that has say a half hour fire rating would this give me 1.5 hours?

I believe the manufacturer is Rosengren (uk)
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jones

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

I think the one thing you can assume about most fireproof safes is that a guy with a hammer and a crowbar can easily open it inside of ten minutes.
Before I sold my last house, when walking the dog we would find busted open firesafes all the time. I guess the desert is a handy place for dumping
the carcass' of these poor innocent victims, poor bastards.
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scudo

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:35 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Not so sure on this one as there are bolts on 3 sides, top bottom and side so even if the hinges are cut off the door wont open. Still it has to be better than storing my cash in a biscuit tin :-)
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Neilau

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:03 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Install the safe and put your cash somewhere else.

Assuming that you are burgled, the safe would be the first thing they would go for. Make it time consuming to remove.

I've been burgled and they went straight to my "strong box". Fortunately, it had very little cash in it but I lost some important papers and photos.

A safe advertises "Here be treasure" - unless it is a really big one that requires a fork lift to move.

My opinion.

Cheers.
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For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert.
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scudo

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

I have a small Yale safe that will be used as a decoy that I have managed to `bump` open, this one that I hopefully will get I will be putting behind a concealed door (thats the plan) so it will be hidden, as I dont need much of the internal space it will be filled mostly with concrete as well as being secured to the floor so the plan is it will be too heavy to move.
Once I get it and assess its potential things may change, it will either be a piece of junk or something worth going to the effort to conceal and use as intended. I suspect coming from the post office it will have at least a decent security rating as they already store their currency from the bureau exchange in it.
Exciting times Neilau waiting for the postman :-) and thinking about this safe.
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Altashot

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:10 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

To answer your question about fire rating.

Not sure about the UK fire ratings but here in America, it works as follows.

To have a certain fire rating, the container's interior temperature must remain at or below 350 degrees Fahrenheit for at least the rated time.

If your safe has a rating of 1 hour, it means that by the end of 1 hour, the temperature inside is at or nearing the 350 degree mark. By then your money box may have had heated at the same rate and may already be at the critical temperature.
Normally, when we sell a safe that needs a lower temperature rating for computer data for example, we add a media container rated for 3 hours to store inside a 1 hour safe.

So, I don't think that a 1/2 hour container inside a 1 hour container will effectively offer a 1 1/2 hour fire protection.
You also said that it could be bolted down, that means it has holes in it. If these holes were not factory made, it no longer has fire protection as per it's label and the label should have been removed.
If they were factory made, the safe MUST be bolted down ( or at least have bolts through the holes ) to meet it's label.

M.
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flywheel

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Use the Calvin and Hobbes method for determining failure ratings...
http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1986/ch861126.gif

You'll need a safe, money box, and some cash for this test. Oh, and some matches.
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jones

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Post Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:37 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

flywheel wrote:Use the Calvin and Hobbes method for determining failure ratings...
http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1986/ch861126.gif

You'll need a safe, money box, and some cash for this test. Oh, and some matches.



I love that calvin & hobbes


I like the op's idea of hiding the real safe and leaving some bait for the crooks
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scudo

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Post Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:34 am

Re: Fireproof safes

You also said that it could be bolted down, that means it has holes in it. If these holes were not factory made, it no longer has fire protection as per it's label and the label should have been removed.
If they were factory made, the safe MUST be bolted down ( or at least have bolts through the holes ) to meet it's label.


Thanks Altashot for the info, the safe would not have been diy fitted and most likely by the manufacturer, until I get in there I wont know for sure which hopefully will be some time in the next 2 weeks as I have to time it with the old premises closing and the new premises being kitted out and ready for opening.

I did mange to get a load of numbers that the guy gave me from stickers attached to the safe, these appear to be ratings for security and presumably fire ratings, I am still trying to google my way through them, when I do get it I can contact the manufacturer for further info as hopefully I can then get a model number.
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Oldfast

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Post Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:59 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Altashot wrote:.....If these holes were not factory made, it no longer has fire protection as per it's label and the label should have been removed.
If they were factory made, the safe MUST be bolted down ( or at least have bolts through the holes ) to meet it's label.

That makes sense, but never occurred to me... good information!
There's someone I know that needs to know of this immediately.

They thought they'd save themselves some time & work by not installing the bolts.
After all, there's no way someone's 'carrying off' this particular safe. But they,
nor I, ever thought about it voiding the fire safety rating. Thanks Altashot

Can't wait to see some pics when ya get it Scudo! Happy for ya. Can't beat FREE :)
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jones

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Post Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:38 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Lockmasters sells an epoxy-style fire insulation, that is supposed to bring an item back into compliance
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Werewolf

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Post Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:55 am

Re: Fireproof safes

1 hour fire rating is something i never heard of. All the ones I've seen are 30minutes or 90minutes.
But these are tested in an oven at 1000°C , so even half an hour is quite long.
Could you get a picture of it ?
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scudo

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Post Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:56 am

Re: Fireproof safes

Got these sent to me of the safe...

image1 (Small).JPG


image1(1) (Small).JPG


image2 (Small).JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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jones

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Post Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:13 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

I understand Rosengrens makes a tough safe, when they are making a money safe. However you can see this is clearly a records safe and was not designed to stand up to
any type of heavy attack. Still is a nice safe, and if you hide it well it will likely do a great job at keeping your treasure from burning up, in case of fire.
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scudo

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Post Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: Fireproof safes

Thanks for your thoughts on the safe. I have to collect this Saturday and I may have some choice as I believe there are 4 altogether and also a large vault. Although I have official permission to take what I want my wife works there and she wont allow me to hire a mega van and clear the lot. :-(
She is already dreading the thought of me trying to get everything in sight and causing major embarrassment for her.

The safe will be hidden behind an `invisible door` bolted to the floor and probably attached in some way to a side wall (without compromising fire resistance) as I dont need much of the internal space I will cast some concrete blocks and have around 175 kilo inside, more if I think it can take it, the idea being to make difficult to carry off. I will then have an alarm of some kind just to add another level. Then my easy to bump Yale safe will be the distraction.

if you have any other thoughts on reducing a forced attack it will be most welcome. Bearing in mind there is very little if at all break-ins around here and the house is also alarmed with outdoor pir lighting.
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