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Key Clam Impressioning Shells

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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:17 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

Wholly crap, the first draft I sent came back at 220 for both halves...
im going to check other materials and see if i can get the cost down

If I order 30 halves or more it will be 80 per half... 160 for the whole thing... still high

1 way to make it cheaper would be injection molding... but i would need alot of orders... more than 10 atleast. but if i did injection molding i could produce more at any point.
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sandman

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:21 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

when i had mentioned a rubber band, it was in regards to transporting it into your pocket, but i totaly forgot about having to heat the fucker, a rubberband wont work in the long run, copper wire or cheap steel wire would. i like the wing nut idea though.
also, aluminum has a huge amount of side effects, not that im saying you are going to eat it, but whilst putting aluminum in a kilm or an oven, check to see what temperatures you can cook that baby at, that shit is extremely toxic at a certain temperature, but i think its only after 400 degrees or more. but i could be wrong.
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sandman

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:24 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

dude, go with the injection molding, you will definitely have more than 10 orders, espcecialy if you can get that cost down to 50 or so.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:01 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

minimum injection mold orders must be over 2000usd... ill need many orders to make this happen
initial cost is so high because they must make the mold to begin with... cost of making the parts after the mold is made is very little.


I dont see it springing open in the oven, im not worried about baking the rubber band...

and an update for everyone... aluminum is nearly twice the price... PMMA is the way to go if im not injection molding... cause i cant do pmma when injectioni molding ill have to find a new material that can withstand the temps
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

soo it looks like to get injection molding off the gound it will take a little over 6200 bucks... and ill only have 30 parts... but to get more itll cost considerably less

If i can get the initial 6000 to get started i can produce them at any time for anyone for a small price.

im thinking 100 bucks a piece would be adequate (considerably less than others ive seen) and if i could get 62 orders I could get this thing off the ground...

any ideas? is it too much to ask?
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KokomoLock

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:24 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

What would be the difference between yours for 100.00 and this one for 60.00?

http://www.lockmasters.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=49345
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14 levers

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

KokomoLock wrote:What would be the difference between yours for 100.00 and this one for 60.00?

http://www.lockmasters.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=49345


Everything you need (clamshell, talc, Wood's metal, scraper, clay, ladle), plus a handy-dandy lil' carry case?
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14 levers

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:47 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

Seriously though, if you were going to do this get some 'chamber casting alloy' such as Cerrosafe from a firearms distributor like Buffalo Arms in Idaho, (but avoid Brownell's they want ~$46/lb).
Cerrosafe is the same stuff old timers used to use as kids to make toy soldiers.
It melts between 160°F and 190°F (optimum 165°F) and is safe to handle, (no Cd, no Pb).
It can be reused indefinately. Which is important, because this is a practice, practice, practice and still fail process.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

lol mine won't have all the cool stuff... there will be a larger clay area for the key to be impressioned in... and quality, and the improvments ive made in the design like things to hold the halves straight when closed aswell as a better hinge

honestly, I had not seen that b4... I've looked there with no luch... Oh well
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:45 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

oh yeah... another difference... hobbiests can buy it...

I believe I can produce this for 60... but not till i get the mold made and thats the 6200 :( once that is done... i could do 50 even (just cause i love you guys)
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14 levers

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Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:39 am

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

Mr. Army

Not to step on your idea, but have you thought of eliminating the hinge and just going with a traditional key dupping frame?

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I have taken the liberty of modifying the 'Clam' design to a pegged design.
This one uses 'knife edge' sides to eliminate the bleed holes, though they could be added.
The little clay pool at the rear is used to get a profile of the key for blank matching.
The entire piece could be produced on a mill using only a 0.75" ball end milling cutter and a 0.1875" plus an '11' or '12' wire number size drill bit. With a CNC machine this is cake.

The rear pin is tallest, with the two front pins one a bit shorter than the other. To close/register the shell you slide the rear pin in it's corresponding hole then swivel till the next tallest drops in and the last one will align. The whole thing (as well as your design) could be closed with a 'giant' binder clip, the largest I've seen has a capability of 1.25".

I know nothing about FIMO clay, but I would be sure it didn't adhere to the frame on heating, it would suck bad to bake your frame and have to hammer the hell out of it to remove the clay.

If you wanted a bakable shell I would use aluminum, but if you were to settle for using just modeling clay you could make them from UHMWPE, it's tough stuff, though it can't be heated, and it machines fine. It's what the 'Clam' is made of.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

I really like you Peg idea... removing the hinge will cut costs by alot...and the binder clip is a great idea aswell...
although adding the profile pool seems redundant, if you are making a mold to pour liquid metal into you dont need to see the profile and if you are a locksmith you most likely know profiles just by the sides... AND if you wanted the profile you could just sitck it in an unused portion of the clay after you get your side views...

I would have to make it a little differently though because i do wish to keep it one piece that i simple produce 2 times... I will redraft this design and get it quoted
and as far as i know fimo does not adhere to things when it is bakes (i have seen people make a mold out of fimo... then bake fimo copies in their fimo mold... it did not stick, usually for pick handles)

I believe this would be more accurate because it forces the user to apply pressure over the whole key at the same time instead of tip first as the clam closes... but we can nolonger call this a clam shell lol
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14 levers

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Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:45 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

I would have to make it a little differently though because i do wish to keep it one piece that i simple produce 2 times.


Actually that is one piece times two, the difference being that one side has to be drilled with the larger bit so it slides over the pins in the other side. You can get hardened dowel pins in 3/16" diameter in lengths from 1/4" to 5/8" in 1/16" increments and 3/4" to 1 3/4" in 1/8" increments for about $16 per 100, though the stranger lengths are considerably more.
If you have access to an accurate drill press you could just have all pieces made the same and oversize the holes in half the lot yourself, as well as install the pins. Or have the entire run drilled oversize and use bearing locker (it's like Lock-Tite© thread locker just thicker and much more permanent) to lock the captive pins into the block.

The little pool of clay is included in the "Clam" that's why I put it in this drawing, but it really is useless.

A machinist with a horizontal mill could turn these out rather quickly in Al or UHMWPE.
Last edited by 14 levers on Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

i was gonna have the pins as part of the design... pins stick out one side and holes in the other side so when you fliped it the pins would match up witht he holes... ill put up a draft pic when later tonight (after work)
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14 levers

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Post Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Re: Key Clam Impressioning Shells

That will add to the machining costs, because the 'pins' now need to be made from raw material for one thing, and that's a lot of time and material wasted. And two it requires high precision multi-axis machining, whereas just 'milling & drilling' is cheap.

Shit, you could just have the machinist spot drill with a 0.25" ball end milling cutter to 0.126" depth at the pin locations and buy some 0.25" ball bearings and perhaps Super Glue® them into the depressions of half the lot. But you'll need to use a really, really small amount of glue so the balls don't stand too proud and you don't get a lot of glue squeezed out.
That'll give you the same domed locators as in your drawing.
Last edited by 14 levers on Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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