FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:08 am

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Hey everyone, I'm Ryan the inventor of the Bowley lock. Thanks for all the interest so far. I can certainly tell that if someone is going to defeat this lock it will probably come from experts like yourselves. I want to say that i made this lock for the affordable residential market. I realize there are fantastic locks available if you want to spend the money. I just didn't like the fact that people on a budget have no security with the locks they have to buy and this lock is for those people.

The denial of use is not a problem. The key and slot are 0.080" thick and the pins are 0.115". The Rotating idler is chamfered and the pointed bottom of the bottom pins rest on this chamfer (both are 45º). This chamfer is able to lift the pins back up and you can return the idler to the bottom. It would be a funny prank but does not brick or ruin the lock in any way. And i have tested this with a standard pick.

I agree that bumping is possible, but it will not be simple. I have heard some ideas that have merit for sure. However during the development of the lock, two ideas fell out that by chance also apply to any standard pin tumbler lock and i would love to know if any one has seen them done in practice. We included them in the international patent we filed and i think there may be interest from the schlages and master lock type companies and i will explain these idea as follows. Also both of these will be implemented in the locks that are sold going forwards. One already is, the second was two late for my last run of prototypes. Ill say this too when you only make ten at a time these locks aren't cheap. :)

Idea 1:
The long pin, or normally open pin:
All the Bowley Locks to date have one pin that actually needs to be all the way down in order to open the lock. Meaning the key actually doesn't touch it. It sits on the idler. This pin can be in any of the 5 positions making a minimum of 5 bump keys required to open a random lock. This pin makes the lock quite touchy with regards to the idler. If the idler is rotated with respect to the lock cylinder the smallest amount the long pin locks the lock. So the idea above of grinding an angle on the flag will lock the lock, as it will allow the idler to rotate.Trust me this has happened to me when i am cutting the chamfer on the flag and went to far. Even if the key is loose 0.005" the angle caused by the tilting of the key can lock the lock so all the tolerances are very controlled. This long pin would stop a normal 5 bump key from working. A bump key would need no bump at that location requiring 5 keys. you could pin it with two long pins increasing that to 20 but i probably will just stay with the one in these first batches. I don"t see why this could not be done on a standard lock as well.

This deep bitting on the key basically makes turning an already cut key into a bump key impossible. You would have to make one from a uncut key and shift the bitting as i think some one mentioned above. We intend on only selling uncut keys to lock smiths so the amount of uncut keys will be limited to the public. And making one yourself requires a laser cutter/wire edm/water jet and a milling machine and special jig. If your curious we laser cut the blanks,machine the keys and we intend on wire edm the bitting for the commercial keys for a great smooth finish. The keys can be cut on a duplicator if a small jig is used to hold the fork tight.

Idea 2:
We call it controlled depth drilling:
The bottom pins in a standard lock when a key is not in the lock all rest at the same depth. The idea here was to differ the depths of these holes so that some pins come to rest above the others essentially lifting them above the bump. So for example, the back pin may sit .045" higher than the rest. The fourth may sit .060". As long as the pin was not forced above the sheer line you would not even have to change the key or the pins. Just the depth of the holes.
Well in our lock it is actually controlled by the width of the chamfer on the idler. The wider the chamfer the deeper the pins can drop and vise versa. We are going to have batches of locks in which certain pins sit higher than others. As long as the key bitting is higher than there lowest allowable fall depth the lock will function as normal but now the permutations of the heights of the bumps on a bump key become very numerous which now brings the number up in to the hundreds. Now there may be visible cues from the out side that may allow a locksmith to deduce the bump key needed but it certainly will stop the criminal with a single bump key.

Before some one else responds a fellow on another forum told me both those ideas are already around. One is shallow drilling and the other zero lift technology. Certainly not surprising. But either way these will make bumping quite a bit tougher i hope.



Anyways. Thanks alot for listening to my rant. Ill try to come on regularly to answer questions.
Regards,
Ryan Bowley
Last edited by Bowley lock company on Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 2056

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:05 am

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your Kickstarter.

I thought it was an interesting lock and when I noticed that the inventor is also from Alberta I suddenly needed to have one. :lol:

Interesting ideas but unfortunately the cheap hardware store locks are just that... Cheap. It would be hard to get them to institute changes to improve security when that would cost more money and make the average joe homeowner look to the next cheapest lock on the shelf.

Have you been in talks to try and get these on store shelves?
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:14 am

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Well thanks for your support fellow Albertan. I have been to several lock smiths in Calgary and they all want to carry it when where ready. My problem is that i have to do a significant amount of these to get the pricing reasonable especially with retail mark up. If kick starter goes well we will produce extra and start selling the locks through locksmiths.
<<

Farmerfreak

Active Member

Posts: 462

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:00 am

Location: SLC, Utah

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:29 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Good to know that my original thoughts about bricking it were wrong.

If I were to attack this without destructive entry. I would take a key, file all the cuts down to the deepest cut. We know what the deepest cut is going to be because you told us that each key has at least one of the cuts as the deepest. Then I would fill each of those cuts with solder or JB weld. Then impression it.

I've never impressioned a lock with solder or JB weld. Not sure how easy it would be, but that's where my mind is going.

For government level attacks. I wonder if it's possible to make a sputnik style pick for it. Or I'd be willing to bet a fancy self impressioning tool could be made for it, something with very small parts like the turbo decoders.
<<

huxleypig

User avatar

The Prestigious and Powerful Porcine Prelate

Posts: 947

Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:59 am

Location: West Mids, UK

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:51 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Farmerfreak wrote:Good to know that my original thoughts about bricking it were wrong.

If I were to attack this without destructive entry. I would take a key, file all the cuts down to the deepest cut. We know what the deepest cut is going to be because you told us that each key has at least one of the cuts as the deepest. Then I would fill each of those cuts with solder or JB weld. Then impression it.

I've never impressioned a lock with solder or JB weld. Not sure how easy it would be, but that's where my mind is going.

For government level attacks. I wonder if it's possible to make a sputnik style pick for it. Or I'd be willing to bet a fancy self impressioning tool could be made for it, something with very small parts like the turbo decoders.


I thought of self impressioning too FF (cos they're the coolest type of lockpicks IMO) and I think it would be possible but difficult to make. What size is the gap between the pins? Because that is where I imagine any support for a self impressioning tool would have to exist. Otherwise you're left with a similar problem as with the Bilock in that you have virtually nowhere to go below the deepest cut.

Not sure how impressioning would go with the small bit of metal to support it. I suppose if the key is happy during normal operation then it would be happy if you were gentle with the impressioning.

So long as something binds when locked (which is the whole premise of physical security!) then it can be overcome IMO.
<<

MBI

User avatar

Site Owner

Posts: 1543

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:25 am

Location: Utah, USA

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:18 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Bowley lock company wrote:Hey everyone, I'm Ryan the inventor of the Bowley lock...

Anyways. Thanks alot for listening to my rant. Ill try to come on regularly to answer questions.
Regards,
Ryan Bowley

I don't view it as a rant. Obviously you want to defend your product from misconceptions, but the important thing is that you're here to discuss it. This is a venue that some would regard as being thrown to the sharks for someone like you, but you're here anyway, I presume to try to make your product better. Having you here will help clarify the operating features and specifications of the lock, which can help us more effectively discuss where vulnerabilities may or may not exist.
<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:18 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

MBI,
I certainly want to make the product as secure as possible. I also realize that it is not impossible to enter this lock and that one day hopefully not to soon some one will probably figure out a way. I work in the R&D department so i'm surrounded by great mechanical engineers and we spend way to much time talking about my lock. (I got written up) We collectively have come up with more security features. If my company is successful we will make higher security versions as well as pad locks and maybe a bike lock. However a lot of the ideas thus far come with difficult manufacturing methods and an increase in components. The more complicated the more secure but the more machine setups, processes and costs. If we are to implement these ideas which by no means are proven yet we will then be in the same price range as the mut-T-lock and abloys which are already great locks at that price point. I am very excited to be on this forum. These are the guys who will point out the flaws and maybe offer suggestions of how to improve them. I will where possible. I really am pissed off that almost everybody i know has crap locks that offer no security. Locks seem to be one of the only products able to get away with not serving there function and just continuing to successfully sell millions. I think a lock should require a skilled professional to open it if the key is not available at the very least.
Cheers,
Ryan
<<

MBI

User avatar

Site Owner

Posts: 1543

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:25 am

Location: Utah, USA

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:34 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

As for destructive entry, since it's not a high security lock there's no reasonable expectation it'll hold up against power tools, but hopefully it'll at least withstand being easily opened with a screwdriver, hammer and vice grips. There are locks that haven't been tough enough for that, like the first generation of SmartKey lock, for example.

I think you can pretty much guarantee that there will be several methods of non-destructive entry discovered by members here.
The real question is whether any of those methods of entry are simple enough for a low cost tool to be mass produced, or easily made and used by people without special skills or tools.

Bump keys are widespread because they are easily used, often with only a few minutes practice.
They are almost as easily manufactured with a metal file and any key that fits the lock, or cheap to buy if you have no file.
Traditional pin-tumbler picks are both cheap to buy and easy to make, and not difficult to learn to use.
They just require practice to become skilled in their use.

You seem to be trying to at least address those two main threats.
Hopefully we'll find out if you succeeded.
<<

Anarchy_won

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 652

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Location: Ontario, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

neat looking lock (and love the fact they are Canadian), I might have to get my hands on 2 or 3 once they are available :drool: (making one onto a cutaway might help with finding a way to open them :-o )
(17:44:28) HAL 9000 Sez: LockSport is full of children who throw fits because low priced low security products sold in discount department stores do not meet their arbitrary expectations.
<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Well the housing is currently 17-4 ph stainless with a yield strength of 160,000psi-210,000psi depending on the heat treatment i use. Rockwell C 35-45. If i go with H900 it will be fairly resistant to drilling certainly not impossible. Its not the hardest stainless around but it extremely strong and still tough. The outer keyhole is fixed so you would not really do anything by turning the face of the lock. I suppose with a 4 ft snipe you could probably start to turn the lock body and twist the screws but then your in the territory of just prying the door open or bashing it in. Certainly there will be significant evidence of the break in but you will not be able to pry the face off as the housing made out of solid bar and the face is pretty thick.
<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:12 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

anarchy_won
They are available on kickstarter now.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/21 ... owley-lock
<<

Anarchy_won

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 652

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Location: Ontario, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:38 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Bowley lock company wrote:anarchy_won
They are available on kickstarter now.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/21 ... owley-lock


Yeah I saw that :) (I am just waiting on getting payed for some side work I did over 4 weeks ago :slam: )
is there anyway to get on a short list to get a lock for "research" ? :D
I would be willing to send a write up to you of anything I found (I would do that regardless of if there was a short list or not), plus I bet I could get at least 2 or 3 of my clients interested in buying some of the locks if I had one in my hands to show them.
(17:44:28) HAL 9000 Sez: LockSport is full of children who throw fits because low priced low security products sold in discount department stores do not meet their arbitrary expectations.
<<

Bowley lock company

Newbie

Posts: 12

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:23 am

Location: Alberta, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:02 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Believe me i wish i could tell you yes. But I need to get these on a screw machine in order to bring the price down. And i need to be in the thousands. The few in my possession are done on standard cnc equiment and they over $300.00 each cost to me. And I need to be fair to everyone who wants this as a challenge, so its only fair to send them at the same time to everybody.
Sorry!
I have been bombarded by emails from the kickstarter about free samples and people wanting to distribute, but unfortunately we are not in the financial position to do that until after kickstarter.
<<

Anarchy_won

User avatar

Active Member

Posts: 652

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Location: Ontario, Canada

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:19 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

I understand :-) I have worked in manufacturing (and currently work in the R&D industry) :)

and to just be clear I was not looking for a free sample ;) but I will be keeping a eye on your company and soon as they are available I will be looking further into them (and get at least 1 or 2).

Good luck and I hope it works out well for you :salute:
(17:44:28) HAL 9000 Sez: LockSport is full of children who throw fits because low priced low security products sold in discount department stores do not meet their arbitrary expectations.
<<

MBI

User avatar

Site Owner

Posts: 1543

Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:25 am

Location: Utah, USA

Post Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:24 pm

Re: The "Bowley Lock": Canada's newest and coolest lock!

Even if the various different security features of this lock already exist or have existed in other locks that have been made, I believe that this specific design with these combined features and security measures is unique, and I'd like one for my collection. I'm going to be putting myself down for one of the ~$90 single cylinders with one key on the Kickstarter. It's just a drop in the bucket, but if enough of us jump in maybe we can make this thing happen.
PreviousNext

Return to Pin Tumbler Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware