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Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:55 pm**

I am a noob but I managed to pick Abus 41/40 four times. I cant tell u the binding order but that's a good start. I think.

Posted: **Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:49 pm**

jerkface wrote:I am a noob but I managed to pick Abus 41/40 four times. I cant tell u the binding order but that's a good start. I think.

Good start. BTW, I like your username. It's the same thing I'm called when wife gets angry at me.

Posted: **Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:16 pm**

Abloy Protec II

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:42 am**

Seems Protec II are pickable.!
Nice job.
Time for Abloy to upgrade.

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:12 am**

huxleypig wrote:Abloy Protec II

In the patent for Protec 2 they claim that the interactive element adds picking resistance by limiting the space for picks. Well, so much for that

Do you even need to keep it constantly engaged or do you just set it once?

Posted: **Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:37 pm**

The new ball bearing? Well, in Protec I there were teeth/ball bearings that came into the keyway and these did indeed choke space off for tools. Hilariously, the change in Protec II actually leaves more room than Protec I.

It is set right at the beginning and then forgotten about.

Posted: **Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:28 am**

huxleypig wrote:The new ball bearing? Well, in Protec I there were teeth/ball bearings that came into the keyway and these did indeed choke space off for tools. Hilariously, the change in Protec II actually leaves more room than Protec I.

It is set right at the beginning and then forgotten about.

Yeah - that's patent lawyers for you I suppose

I assume they had to claim that it added some actual functional improvement to get a patent granted.
I had a slightly incorrect memory of the motivation given though. It's even stranger, IMNSHO:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2406442B1.html

First the description of the DC in the old Protec:

The key has counter surfaces for the balls of the limiting mechanism. The counter surfaces are recesses in the surface of the key. When the key is in the correct place in the key cylinder, the ball of the limiting mechanism on the key side is in the recess of the key, and as the key is turned, the ball on the casing side is able to move away from the hollow of the casing. Thus, the key can be turned in order to move the tumbler discs into the correct position for opening the lock. In this case, the inner cylinder is able to turn as turning of the key is continued.

The rotation limiter makes the disc tumbler cylinder lock more functionally reliable. However, it is able to rotate in the cylinder lock, when a key is not inserted into the lock. This rotation facilitates the possible picking of the lock.

Then the description of the DC in Protec 2:

The object of the invention is a disc tumbler cylinder lock, the rotation limiter of which is not able to rotate, when a key is not in the cylinder lock. The object is achieved in the manner described in the independent claim. The dependent claims describe various embodiments of the invention.
...
The locking mechanism comprises a locking pin directed along said line, which comprises, at the end on the casing side, a projection that is transverse in relation to the axis of the locking pin. The projection is arranged, in cooperation with the casing, to prevent the frame from turning, when the key is not in the lock or fully inserted into the lock.

The key of the combination comprises a through hole, in which hole a moving element is disposed. The element is arranged to move in the hole such that it is prevented from moving entirely away from the hole. The surfaces of the moving element, which are visible from the through hole, form said guidance surfaces.

This part is of course closer to the actual motivation:

Additionally, the duplication of a key is more difficult, when there is a moving element in the key. This complicates the production of illegal copies.

I guess they couldn't just write "our old patent is about to expire so we had to do something"

Posted: **Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:42 am**

ASSA Twin Combi 5600 - Fully pinned

picked_fullypinned0.png

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
About a year later than it should have been - but better late than never, right?
Funny that I finally got the whole thing picked now since I'm currently half deaf due to an ear infection...

The side mechanism was certainly trickier to learn than the original ASSA Twin 6000 (plus I had to make my own tool for the side pins), but I must say that picking the whole thing was a lot easier.
This one, like all Combi's I've encountered, has the new-style ASSA security pins ("double barrel" or whatever you call them).
Would be interesting to find a Twin Combi with the old-style security pins ("gin bottle" spools) plus countermilling (deep "pocket" instead of threaded) and compare.

I suppose once my ears work again I will try picking another Twin Combi 5600 that I have. It's been sitting around unpicked for 2 years or so.
That one I don't have a key for, or any idea what the key looks like, and can't gut, so it'd be totally blind.

PS. I could actually pick it with up to 4 side pins using the Schlage Primus tool. However, I was unable to set the side pin at the back without oversetting the pin before it, due to the high/low bitting that you can see in the photo of the key.

Edit: Well, I think the other 5600 just answered my question regarding the pins. After setting the side pins it goes into a false set with counter-rotation and jamming pins. Haven't been able to set the damn things without dropping side pins. I suspect I'm in for a bit of a fight considering the damn Twin 6000 took approximately 2 hours of actual picking to get open, after trying for several weeks...
Wonder if this is custom-pinned or these Combis once came with the old pins? Maybe it's some older model than 5600, just with a similar profile?

Posted: **Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:42 pm**

ASSA Twin Combi, probably 5600:

picked.png

I have never seen the key or insides of this lock (no way to remove the pins from the top in this form factor). I also hadn't tried picking it at all until yesterday.

To my great surprise, I actually got the sidebar picked on the very first try. Wow, I might not be bad at this, after all!
Actually setting all of the top pins took a few more attempts since I kept dropping one (or all) side pins. Plus the usual difficulty of dealing with this sort of security pins, of course.
The bind order wasn't as nasty as I was fearing from my previous battle with an old Twin. Just set a few top pins, then all side pins, and then it goes into a false set and unless you drop side pins it's open as soon as all top pins are set.
I think the top pins are the old-style gin bottle spools, but not entirely sure. I didn't even know Combi (as opposed to original Twin) came with them. Due to the lack of key I'm a bit hesitant to gut it - I suspect it'll be hard to get the damn side pins in place again if I do.

Interestingly enough, if you compare the mechanisms, the top pins would have been a more difficult pick than the side pins! Atleast with the proper tool.

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 am**

Excellent picking Patrick! I have had a Combi for a while now, and have spent long periods trying to pick it with no success. I agree with you, I think the top pins with the barrel spools are harder to pick than the sidebar pins.

Lockwood Gen6T w/ B14 profile

The profiles in this restricted series have hands down the tightest keyways I have ever encountered. The little wibble at the top still manages to grab a specially thinned .013 pick everytime, so you get very little feedback from the pins. This cylinder is also from the latest revision of the series, which has added 2 ASSA 'T' pins to extend patent life. For those who don't know, the 'T' pins are just pins with 2 different faces, with each one sitting on a different cut in the key. I imagine they have to use a special cutter on the key machine to achieve these type of cuts, I will have to ask for a demo next time I am at that LS.

adi_picker

Posted: **Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:50 am**

To get some idea of the pins I'm talking about:

First Combi I picked. The new, 'easy' (well... relatively speaking) ones:

These are the pins I call 'double spools' for lack of a better name.

Second Combi I picked. The old bastards (same drivers as ASSA 700):

These are the pins I call "gin bottle" and "mushroom cloud"/"Xmas tree".
Some (atleast older Twin's) only come with the "gin bottle" version of those, i.e. those that only have one lip and not two.
My experience is that with only the 'gin bottle' versions they jam up a lot harder, but behave more predictably.

Like tumbl3r (I think it was) noted way back, these are actually easier to pick when there's a sidebar, as long as binding doesn't alternate between individual top and side pins. The reason is that once the entire sidebar is picked, the pressure from the sidebar springs provide some counter-rotation that helps when working the top pins out of the counter-milling.
When picking the normal ASSA 700, you actually have to provide manual counter-rotation in some cases. See my guide: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=11910

(N.B.: The gut shots are not from my actual locks - my camera isn't that good

and I have only actually gutted one of them.)

Posted: **Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:12 pm**

One for GlobalLocky

8-Pin First Gen BiLock on Telecom Bluephone Payphone - SPP

adi_picker

Posted: **Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:03 am**

( Function rather than beauty for me, a little butter or paint type knife, cost 50p )
Where did you buy a paint type knife that cost 50p ?
knuckles

Posted: **Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:45 pm**

drewannrez wrote:( Function rather than beauty for me, a little butter or paint type knife, cost 50p )
Where did you buy a paint type knife that cost 50p ?

its the bread knives that are expensive fella - lol

great picking guys

ringo

Posted: **Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:10 pm**

2 x BiLock First Gen Padlocks SPP

2 x BEST 7 Pin 'L' Keyway

First 7 pin BESTS for me, have picked quite a few now, but have never had any 7 pins in possession before. Big thanks a bunch to RMRFSUDO for the trade, and the Everest Primus padlock, he comes recommended by me

Getting better at the BiLock First Gens, all SPP, now have a bunch of different models of the revision so I can get to know them better.

adi_picker

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