Lock Picking Spectrum of Difficulty

[mercurial]

You're welcome & thankyou for an interesting & thought provoking thread. The resulting list should be very helpful for beginners, looking to take gradual steps towards more challenging locks, too.

I don't think I should make the call, but whilst it occurred to me that they are sidebar locks, maybe disk detainer locks are unique & numerous enough to deserve their own category? Also, it seems trivial to rank cheap Chinese disk detainer locks, the S&G environmental, Abus & the various Abloys, but integrating other sidebar locks in such a list seems very difficult. Comparing them to the other sidebar locks mentioned seems to lack meaning.

...Mark

[Deadlock]

ERA 5 pin rim cylinder. Level 2. This can also be opened by the traditional raking technique as described in those old "How to pick locks" booklets.

[xeo]

TrioVing is definitely not level 5 on pin tumblers. They make some of the most dificult locks I've ever gotten my hands on. Their tolerances are slightly higher than ASSA in my opinion. Their dp10 (6 top drivers, countermilling, with 10 slider sidebar with no return spring on the sliders) is outrageously hard to pick. Even their regular 7 pin cylinders with no sidebar are nightmarish.

[GWiens2001]

Have not got my grubby little paws on a TrioVing DP10, but can speak on the difficulty of their 7 pin cylinders without sidebars. They belong waaay up on the chart. Those trampoline pins will definitely keep you bouncing around.

Gordon

[GringoLocksmith]

Is a given level in one category meant to be the same difficulty as the respective level in every other category? That is, is the Level 3 Kwikset SmartKey supposed to be on par with the Level 3 Schlage pin tumbler, or is it understood that sidebar locks are harder than locks without sidebars?

[mercurial]

I only speak for myself, but it is very difficult to rate locks in one category, let alone to have them correspond with any meaning to other types of mechanism. To attempt that is an exercise in futility as I see it.

...Mark

[scudo]

Yes I think trying to categorise locks by type/difficulty has so many variables that it will never be a definitive guide, one also has the pickers own ability coming in to play, my first basic 4 pin padlock took me 6 weeks to pop, at that time the difficulty rating as a newbie was like a 10 and then it just went `pop` now I consider it a 1 or 2.

Having said that for newbie/ intermediate lock pickers it is a very useful guide, above that the good and very good are on their own as it is probably their own expertise rather than the lock itself that determines the security level.

Anyhow I like the idea.

[mercurial]

Yes I think trying to categorise locks by type/difficulty has so many variables that it will never be a definitive guide, one also has the pickers own ability coming in to play, my first basic 4 pin padlock took me 6 weeks to pop, at that time the difficulty rating as a newbie was like a 10 and then it just went `pop` now I consider it a 1 or 2.

Having said that for newbie/ intermediate lock pickers it is a very useful guide, above that the good and very good are on their own as it is probably their own expertise rather than the lock itself that determines the security level.

Anyhow I like the idea.

Well said.

A few more additions : Defiant could be added to level 2 of pin tumbler locks, TriCircle & XPT padlocks to level 3 and CES, Burg Wachter, Lockwood V7 & Winkhaus to level 5

The Assa d12 is a beast of a lock, but less difficult than the Assa Twin. On that basis, I'd put it on level 6. I picked mine once, killing the pick I made for the job in the process.

...Mark

[flywheel]

-Asking for help from any computer programmers-

I am pleased to see that this thread has picked up some steam. I originally envisioned this thread/project as a facemash type of program as seen on The Social Network. Since I lack programming skills it instead became an arbitrary ranking system. But it's a start...

Asking for help in creating LockMash™ the official program to rank the lock picking spectrum of difficulty.
I envision it works as follows; The program runs and two pictures of different locks appear side by side. A question at the top of the screen asks, "How many of the locks below have you picked?" (0) (1) (both). The second question below that is, "Please click the picture of the lock that is more difficult to pick open." There might be a slight variation on this depending on how the first question was answered. Lastly there is a button underneath, "Lock answer and continue". The next pairing is then brought up. Maybe another button, "save and exit" somewhere on the screen.

The weight given to each vote would depend on the answer to the first question. Choose both and your votes are given full weight. Choose zero and your votes are given only 10% weight. With a large enough bank of lock photos and enough members participating it might be possible to create a statistically significant grade for each lock in regards to picking difficulty. The accuracy depends on the number of players and their picking skill level.

Good idea? Bad idea? Anyone willing to help with this? Hell, those guys on The Social Network created their program in a few hours and they were drunk! Maybe that's movie magic?

Here is to LockMash™, or whatever name it ends up with!
Thanks!

[GWiens2001]

Flywheel, this is a great thread. It will be a great reference for people of all levels. It is also fascinating to see how others rate locks.

Just want to note that the U-Change is not a sidebar lock. It is a pin tumbler lock. The rekeying is done by changing the length of the key pins.

Gordon

[Josephus]

-Asking for help from any computer programmers-

.....
Here is to LockMash™, or whatever name it ends up with!
Thanks!

Would be a good time waster when nothing else on the forums is going on. I would not know what to write it in or how to do a number of operations as there is an unanswered question of what are the particulars? That is, web based, standalone, what type of server would it run on, configs, acceptable behaviors, and so on.

I think your weighting isn't necessary, possibly detrimental. I'll go with John Stuart Mill on this and say that the only opinion that matters is from someone who can experience both choices.

Seems simple enough though.
1. Select two random lock types, preferably with pictures.
2. User query, skip or selection
3. Add to raw score for harder lock, nothing for the other. Increment a second counter of both by one.
4. Repeat.

Rankings are determined by the percentage success of being selected as the harder difficulty. This way any new item can be added to the database at any time without having to throw out the other rankings. Some stats can be applied too like the number of votes, percentage of users that have opened a specific lock, and so on.

If it was for myself I would be a lazy bastard and store everything in a two dimensional array with four fields written to a simple text file after every query to avoid data loss. Lock name text, location of image, and the two vars. I'd just use a scripting language and a library for UI, just boring html if it was web based. It would be silly simple to add to the database. Place pic in appropriate location, add text and image name/location in a new line, done. Could be automated with an upload option to avoid any actual admin work. I don't have any publicly accessible hosting though, so can't really do it in the way you want.

*edited slightly because of stupid

[flywheel]

Some thanks to GringoLocksmith also. Lacking programming skills I had totally disregarded the original vision but Gringo PM'd with a similar idea. That was enough to prompt me to ask for help. Sometimes that's all it takes.

If the program comes to fruition it might be fun to add some easter eggs so it doesn't feel like standardized testing. Maybe have a lock giveaway buried in there as well for the participants?

Thanks folks. I'll update the current lists in the next day or two.

Good points and to answer one of Josephus' questions above it would be web based. There might be a button right beside the chat button at the top of the page. If you are logged into KP then you would have access to the program. Definitely would like to have labeled pictures with each selection.
You are definitely right, the final tally should belong to experienced pickers of the locks displayed. However, a secondary statistical analysis of lock manufacturer bias among inexperienced pickers might be very interesting. Thanks for your input.

[scudo]

Dunno if it would be of any help but I have done many a spreadsheet using excel programming, I am no expert but can usually come up with something usable. I dont know how it would be hosted that would be someone elses department.

So I will throw that on the table if is of any use.

[xeo]

The only way to do this correctly is to come up with a list of metrics for each lock:

Type (Pin Tumbler, Disc Detainer, etc)
Sidebar (yes/no)
Number of top pins
Number of side pins
Countermilling (yes/no)
Number of security elements in total
Tolerance rating (0-100)
Rotational elements like Medeco/Primus/Combi (yes/no)
Security pins (yes/no)
Security pins type
Keyway (you would literally need to make an entry for each keyway)
Keyway difficulty rating (0-100)
Does bitting inhibit picking, this would be related to keyway (yes/no)

... etc etc


Then for calculations of the overall picking difficulty you need to factor in bitting and keyway combinations for pin tumblers. You should probably calculate two different ratings, one with the bitting disregarded if the bitting inhibits picking and one with. The picking weight rating would be a combination of all the different metrics and those metrics could have varying weights on the final outcome. You'd need a formula for doing this that makes sense from a realistic point of view. There is also another interesting metric of Euro VS USA. Is the lock mounted upside down? I don't know if you've ever tried picking a Medeco that was mounted upside down but it IS different. Gravity having effect on the keypins changes the game.

Make a database.

Structure the relational schema as a table for manufacturers and their information, a second table for lock model, pointing back to the manufacturer table. There may be other tables but I can't think of them right now. This is an incredible amount of work and should probably be crowdsourced, but would require reviewing each entry for legitmacy. Also you're going to need to have people who are atleast highly to very highly skilled entering this information.

Sounds like a life long project for a serious picker. Good luck.

[GringoLocksmith]

xeo,

It sounds like you've got a slightly different vision for this thing, for which a wiki would be be more appropriate. Wikilock would be a great project, and free wiki templates are easily available. It's definitely a thing worth doing. I've thought about starting a wiki for key blanks.

But I don't think that all that information is required for flywheel's idea. Sure, there can be tons of variation in the difficulty of a single lock depending on how it's pinned up, not to mention all the other factors that influence picking difficulty. But flywheel's idea relies upon dozens -- possibly hundreds -- of participants to arrive at some sort of average relative difficulty. I see this method as something akin to sorting a bunch of sand and pebbles by putting them in a jar and shaking them up for while.

Am I understanding this right, flywheel?

Gringo