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Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

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Riyame

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Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

rai wrote:Mr Sours key ring shows a couple of keys that would fall out of the lock, at the bottom of the keyring, you can see them they step off from no cut to half cut to 90degree cut on the tip and this too would not be key retaining.


Those are all 112 keys. They stopped using those for just that reason.
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JustPassingThrough

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Post Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:16 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hello All,

I have some information / observations for the Environmental Series that may be of some use and that I have not seen discussed as yet.

But first, if anyone out there feels the details might jeopardize security, then feel free to take this post down. I will not shed any tears and understand completely.

A close friend of mine is actively employed in the railroad industry, and allowed me to examine his set of S&G Environmental Series keys. He has a 101, 102, 104, 107, 107A, 109. Yes, he has a 107 (cast stainless) and a 107A (machined brass). All keys have serial numbers. All keys are in active service.

First, I took note that his 107A differed greatly from the one in Mister Sours' image. While Mister Sour's is a three bit, the 107A in my friends possession examined is a four bit. As I said, the key is currently in service on a railroad here in the Northeast, so with all due respect, I am not going to post the dimensions of the bits or an image, but I will list the following:

(bow) 0 90 0 45 (tip) "ACAB"

The bits are not of equal length nor do they conform to the standardized bit length (which I will this discuss later). The key is of machined brass, like Mister Sours. Which led to me to wonder why the 107A keys would be in brass, and the others cast stainless, even the 107.

What I have come up with, is the following: The cast stainless keys (101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111 and 112 - presuming 108, 110 and 111 - which I've never seen) are high volume and mass produced in molds, hence their pebble finish even on the bits and in the cuts. Therefore, a 102 used on a RR on the west coast would be the same as a 102 on an east coast RR. Ok, no revelation there.

BUT, as I noticed, the 107A's bits and cuts appear to be machined / milled. Why machine a key, when you are already molding them? In this case, I think the answer is: to produce a limited amount of special format keys. Logically, brass is definitely easier and cheaper to machine than stainless, hence its choice as material.

Therefore my conclusion is that the 107A's are machined to order per request by individual railroads on an "as requested" basis. This would make sense since a smaller RR might only want 500 or 1000 locks (where as a big Class 1 railroad may purchase 10,000 or more); and the small RR wants it different from the neighboring connecting RR, would dictate a custom bit arrangement. Type the design and quantity into a CNC milling machine, and "presto". It really isn't that much of a hassle.

This would allow a smaller regional / short line RR to ask S&G for a non-standard /custom arrangement, whether for a little added security or for segregation from neighboring RR. The railroad that the 107A key I examined is for a Class 2 regional RR, which interchanges with three Class 1 RR's: Canadian Pacific, Norfolk Southern and CSX. Therefore, this regional RR must not want a key commonly available to NS or CP crews, so it custom ordered a different key from S&G. (And as CSX uses American H-10, that eliminates an issue with them).

Now why S&G chose to use the number "107A" for these custom brass keys instead of "100" or "113", is beyond me.

Again, this is only hypothesis. The only fact I have is having seen differing 107A keys and trying to figure out "why".

Ok, technical details:

Looking at the images on this thread, the other Sargent & Greenleaf thread in this forum, BosnianBill's Youtube video, and the keys I have encountered, I have discerned the following:

101 through 104 and 106, 107, 109 and 112 are using a standardized but asymmetrical bit/cut length (each of the three bit/cut being a different length): bow to tip: 0.171", 0.234" and 0.25". BUT these dimensions hold true for all the keys mentioned.

HOWEVER: judging from the images, #105 has symmetrical length bits/cuts: .22", .22", .22".

All except 107A have the same length flat (blade?) area from shoulder to tip: .655"

The 107A I measured however, the flat (blade?) area is .70" overall (shoulder to tip). Also (as from what I hypothesized above), as the bit arrangement on the 107A are customized per customer, bit length will differ per customer.

One railroad may have a 107A four bit: 'A' 0.15" - 'B' 0.22" - 'C' 0.12" - 'B' 0.21" (= .70")
while another railroad may have a 107A three bit: 'C' 0.3" - 'B' 0.171 - 'C' 0.22" (= .70")

As I didn't have access to another 107A except the one in Mister Sours' photo, I scaled that with the dimensions I knew the other key bits in the photo to be, and what I came up with was:
0.30" - 0.17" - 0.25" = .72" Pretty darn close to .70!

All blade / shank diameters are .296" or 19/64"

The actual angles of all bit cuts are not 90° and 45° but actually 75° and 30°, which would mean the keys are on a 15° offset from the actual flat area, (if the flat is held in totally vertical plane or 0°). I do believe that has been mentioned in this thread that the cut angles were not exactly 90° and 45°, but I could not find the exact angles listed, until I examined them in person and so here they are.

I know this is a lot of technical mumble jumble, but it honestly allowed me to "reverse engineer" a 104 key that I tried out on a S&G lock on a local tourist RR, (of which I know some of the principals and had permission to try it out, so nobody needs to get their knickers in a twist!)

What does this all mean? I always thought the Environmental Series to be "high security", when in actuality I now feel they are more "high durability" or anti-vandal / anti-abuse.

Once I understood the mechanics, I was amazed at how quickly it took to completely fabricate a key from scratch. I used a 5/16" cotter pin, a warding file, a flat file, mini belt sander and a machinists rule scaled to 100th of an inch.

And this was before I found the Youtube videos or this thread on Sargent & Greenleaf... Come to think of it, if high security was what I was after, this key design would not be my first choice for even a chastity belt! :drool:

The other task I undertook, is compiling a list of which key is currently in use or was used by which RR. I was going to publish the list here, but then I thought it might cause some issues and/or agita with the RR's.. :spinning: And the last thing I needed was a call from any cinder dicks (that's a euphemism for a railroad detective/railroad police for you non-rail enthusiast types!)

But if you contact me directly, I would be most appreciative for your contribution and I will share my findings with you.

With this, I hope I've added something to this little circle of S&G aficionados. I'm glad to see I am not the only one with affection for this series of lock!

Again, if anyone should have issues with this post, by all means, feel free to take it down.

All the best and have a great day!

Phil
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Riyame

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Post Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:16 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Well that is quite the first post. Welcome to the forum. There are only so many possible keys (27 including all 000/111/222 cuts) and with the bigger model (0881 version) there cannot be custom biting other than those due to the design of the lock and its parts. The smaller model of the lock has 5 discs I believe, I am not sure of how many different cut depths/angles.

Some major RRs have "claimed" a specific key to their own railway. Meaning 1 key can open thousands of miles of tracks. :roll:

I am not sure as to the differences of the 107 and 107A key but I have seen both brass and cast steel versions. I will refer your question to somebody that may know. I do know that the only brass ones I have seen are 107 keys.
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macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

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MBI

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Post Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:28 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

That is really interesting. Thanks for sharing your research with us.

JustPassingThrough wrote:Hello All,

I have some information / observations for the Environmental Series that may be of some use and that I have not seen discussed as yet.

But first, if anyone out there feels the details might jeopardize security, then feel free to take this post down. I will not shed any tears and understand completely.

A close friend of mine is actively employed in the railroad industry, and allowed me to examine his set of S&G Environmental Series keys. He has a 101, 102, 104, 107, 107A, 109. Yes, he has a 107 (cast stainless) and a 107A (machined brass). All keys have serial numbers. All keys are in active service.

First, I took note that his 107A differed greatly from the one in Mister Sours' image. While Mister Sour's is a three bit, the 107A in my friends possession examined is a four bit. As I said, the key is currently in service on a railroad here in the Northeast, so with all due respect, I am not going to post the dimensions of the bits or an image, but I will list the following:

(bow) 0 90 0 45 (tip) "ACAB"

The bits are not of equal length nor do they conform to the standardized bit length (which I will this discuss later). The key is of machined brass, like Mister Sours. Which led to me to wonder why the 107A keys would be in brass, and the others cast stainless, even the 107.

What I have come up with, is the following: The cast stainless keys (101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111 and 112 - presuming 108, 110 and 111 - which I've never seen) are high volume and mass produced in molds, hence their pebble finish even on the bits and in the cuts. Therefore, a 102 used on a RR on the west coast would be the same as a 102 on an east coast RR. Ok, no revelation there.

BUT, as I noticed, the 107A's bits and cuts appear to be machined / milled. Why machine a key, when you are already molding them? In this case, I think the answer is: to produce a limited amount of special format keys. Logically, brass is definitely easier and cheaper to machine than stainless, hence its choice as material.

Therefore my conclusion is that the 107A's are machined to order per request by individual railroads on an "as requested" basis. This would make sense since a smaller RR might only want 500 or 1000 locks (where as a big Class 1 railroad may purchase 10,000 or more); and the small RR wants it different from the neighboring connecting RR, would dictate a custom bit arrangement. Type the design and quantity into a CNC milling machine, and "presto". It really isn't that much of a hassle.

This would allow a smaller regional / short line RR to ask S&G for a non-standard /custom arrangement, whether for a little added security or for segregation from neighboring RR. The railroad that the 107A key I examined is for a Class 2 regional RR, which interchanges with three Class 1 RR's: Canadian Pacific, Norfolk Southern and CSX. Therefore, this regional RR must not want a key commonly available to NS or CP crews, so it custom ordered a different key from S&G. (And as CSX uses American H-10, that eliminates an issue with them).

Now why S&G chose to use the number "107A" for these custom brass keys instead of "100" or "113", is beyond me.

Again, this is only hypothesis. The only fact I have is having seen differing 107A keys and trying to figure out "why".

Ok, technical details:

Looking at the images on this thread, the other Sargent & Greenleaf thread in this forum, BosnianBill's Youtube video, and the keys I have encountered, I have discerned the following:

101 through 104 and 106, 107, 109 and 112 are using a standardized but asymmetrical bit/cut length (each of the three bit/cut being a different length): bow to tip: 0.171", 0.234" and 0.25". BUT these dimensions hold true for all the keys mentioned.

HOWEVER: judging from the images, #105 has symmetrical length bits/cuts: .22", .22", .22".

All except 107A have the same length flat (blade?) area from shoulder to tip: .655"

The 107A I measured however, the flat (blade?) area is .70" overall (shoulder to tip). Also (as from what I hypothesized above), as the bit arrangement on the 107A are customized per customer, bit length will differ per customer.

One railroad may have a 107A four bit: 'A' 0.15" - 'B' 0.22" - 'C' 0.12" - 'B' 0.21" (= .70")
while another railroad may have a 107A three bit: 'C' 0.3" - 'B' 0.171 - 'C' 0.22" (= .70")

As I didn't have access to another 107A except the one in Mister Sours' photo, I scaled that with the dimensions I knew the other key bits in the photo to be, and what I came up with was:
0.30" - 0.17" - 0.25" = .72" Pretty darn close to .70!

All blade / shank diameters are .296" or 19/64"

The actual angles of all bit cuts are not 90° and 45° but actually 75° and 30°, which would mean the keys are on a 15° offset from the actual flat area, (if the flat is held in totally vertical plane or 0°). I do believe that has been mentioned in this thread that the cut angles were not exactly 90° and 45°, but I could not find the exact angles listed, until I examined them in person and so here they are.

I know this is a lot of technical mumble jumble, but it honestly allowed me to "reverse engineer" a 104 key that I tried out on a S&G lock on a local tourist RR, (of which I know some of the principals and had permission to try it out, so nobody needs to get their knickers in a twist!)

What does this all mean? I always thought the Environmental Series to be "high security", when in actuality I now feel they are more "high durability" or anti-vandal / anti-abuse.

Once I understood the mechanics, I was amazed at how quickly it took to completely fabricate a key from scratch. I used a 5/16" cotter pin, a warding file, a flat file, mini belt sander and a machinists rule scaled to 100th of an inch.

And this was before I found the Youtube videos or this thread on Sargent & Greenleaf... Come to think of it, if high security was what I was after, this key design would not be my first choice for even a chastity belt! :drool:

The other task I undertook, is compiling a list of which key is currently in use or was used by which RR. I was going to publish the list here, but then I thought it might cause some issues and/or agita with the RR's.. :spinning: And the last thing I needed was a call from any cinder dicks (that's a euphemism for a railroad detective/railroad police for you non-rail enthusiast types!)

But if you contact me directly, I would be most appreciative for your contribution and I will share my findings with you.

With this, I hope I've added something to this little circle of S&G aficionados. I'm glad to see I am not the only one with affection for this series of lock!

Again, if anyone should have issues with this post, by all means, feel free to take it down.

All the best and have a great day!

Phil
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Oldfast

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Post Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:47 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Wow... welcome to the forum Phil. And I hope your username is not true, lol.
Lots of info there. I look forward to seeing more of your work. Stick around, eh? :)
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JustPassingThrough

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Post Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:42 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hi OldFast

Nah, the "JustPassingThrough" user name is my general outlook on life / existence! :slam:
I have so many weird off beat interests (mainly older industrial equipment but also local history) i.e.: Morgan vises, locks, lanterns, Robbins & Meyers and Hunter window fans); local glass bottles & emphera, and on and on. If it catches my eye, I wind up researching it and getting involved!

So, I needed a username that was 'neutral'. ;)
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:35 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

JustPassingThrough wrote:A close friend of mine is actively employed in the railroad industry, and allowed me to examine his set of S&G Environmental Series keys. He has a 101, 102, 104, 107, 107A, 109. Yes, he has a 107 (cast stainless) and a 107A (machined brass). All keys have serial numbers. All keys are in active service.


There are at least three variations on 107; the cast stainless 107 and two variants of 107A that I have seen photos of.

JustPassingThrough wrote:
First, I took note that his 107A differed greatly from the one in Mister Sours' image. While Mister Sour's is a three bit, the 107A in my friends possession examined is a four bit. As I said, the key is currently in service on a railroad here in the Northeast, so with all due respect, I am not going to post the dimensions of the bits or an image, but I will list the following:

(bow) 0 90 0 45 (tip) "ACAB"

The bits are not of equal length nor do they conform to the standardized bit length (which I will this discuss later). The key is of machined brass, like Mister Sours. Which led to me to wonder why the 107A keys would be in brass, and the others cast stainless, even the 107.

What I have come up with, is the following: The cast stainless keys (101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111 and 112 - presuming 108, 110 and 111 - which I've never seen) are high volume and mass produced in molds, hence their pebble finish even on the bits and in the cuts. Therefore, a 102 used on a RR on the west coast would be the same as a 102 on an east coast RR. Ok, no revelation there.


I do not believe that 110 or 111 exist. I could be wrong. I have seen photos of a 118. I have been told that 121 and 122 exist, but I've never seen them (the person who told me has a 118). I do not believe a 100 exists; I could be wrong.

JustPassingThrough wrote:BUT, as I noticed, the 107A's bits and cuts appear to be machined / milled. Why machine a key, when you are already molding them? In this case, I think the answer is: to produce a limited amount of special format keys. Logically, brass is definitely easier and cheaper to machine than stainless, hence its choice as material.


Maybe. But the 0323 key replaced the 112 key (so I've been told); it's a key-retaining version of the 112. So maybe they switched later for another reason? As has been previously discussed in this thread, the 112 didn't meet design criteria to be key retaining. By adding a little extra flange at the tip, they solve that problem (more to come on this flange discussion in a minute).

Likewise, I've heard that one of the 107A variants somehow improved the functionality of the 107? Not sure. Does the 107 fall out?--ie, is it non-key retaining?

JustPassingThrough wrote:Therefore my conclusion is that the 107A's are machined to order per request by individual railroads on an "as requested" basis. This would make sense since a smaller RR might only want 500 or 1000 locks (where as a big Class 1 railroad may purchase 10,000 or more); and the small RR wants it different from the neighboring connecting RR, would dictate a custom bit arrangement. Type the design and quantity into a CNC milling machine, and "presto". It really isn't that much of a hassle.

This would allow a smaller regional / short line RR to ask S&G for a non-standard /custom arrangement, whether for a little added security or for segregation from neighboring RR. The railroad that the 107A key I examined is for a Class 2 regional RR, which interchanges with three Class 1 RR's: Canadian Pacific, Norfolk Southern and CSX. Therefore, this regional RR must not want a key commonly available to NS or CP crews, so it custom ordered a different key from S&G. (And as CSX uses American H-10, that eliminates an issue with them).

Now why S&G chose to use the number "107A" for these custom brass keys instead of "100" or "113", is beyond me.


I'd like to know too.

JustPassingThrough wrote:Again, this is only hypothesis. The only fact I have is having seen differing 107A keys and trying to figure out "why".

Ok, technical details:

Looking at the images on this thread, the other Sargent & Greenleaf thread in this forum, BosnianBill's Youtube video, and the keys I have encountered, I have discerned the following:

101 through 104 and 106, 107, 109 and 112 are using a standardized but asymmetrical bit/cut length (each of the three bit/cut being a different length): bow to tip: 0.171", 0.234" and 0.25". BUT these dimensions hold true for all the keys mentioned.

HOWEVER: judging from the images, #105 has symmetrical length bits/cuts: .22", .22", .22".

All except 107A have the same length flat (blade?) area from shoulder to tip: .655"

The 107A I measured however, the flat (blade?) area is .70" overall (shoulder to tip). Also (as from what I hypothesized above), as the bit arrangement on the 107A are customized per customer, bit length will differ per customer.

One railroad may have a 107A four bit: 'A' 0.15" - 'B' 0.22" - 'C' 0.12" - 'B' 0.21" (= .70")
while another railroad may have a 107A three bit: 'C' 0.3" - 'B' 0.171 - 'C' 0.22" (= .70")

As I didn't have access to another 107A except the one in Mister Sours' photo, I scaled that with the dimensions I knew the other key bits in the photo to be, and what I came up with was:
0.30" - 0.17" - 0.25" = .72" Pretty darn close to .70!

All blade / shank diameters are .296" or 19/64"


Look at the patent. Specifically, look at the drawing on this page:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=RVo0AA ... &q&f=false

Now, if you read the text, #15 is the disc tumbler. #16 is a spacer. Look how big & forgiving that spacer is compared to the disc tumbler.

That's why the Abloy 101 & the S&G 101 both work a 101 lock as pictured here in Mr. Sour's old post: viewtopic.php?f=93&t=6054&start=30#p49579

That extra flange or false bitting (right word?) on the tip is just gobbled up by the spacers. Which is what the 0323 key adds to the original 112---just that "false bitting" on the tip of the key to make a 0323 key-retaining when the 112 falls out.

JustPassingThrough wrote:The actual angles of all bit cuts are not 90° and 45° but actually 75° and 30°, which would mean the keys are on a 15° offset from the actual flat area, (if the flat is held in totally vertical plane or 0°). I do believe that has been mentioned in this thread that the cut angles were not exactly 90° and 45°, but I could not find the exact angles listed, until I examined them in person and so here they are.


You are sort of right.

If you look at an Abloy cut of these keys, they are a half cylinder rod (180-degrees) with the various 0°, 45°, and 90° taken out. And the cuts are truly at 0°, 45°, and 90°. But if you look at a CAST stainless S&G version, They are actually a little more than 1/2 cylinder or a bit more than 180-degrees of solid w/ cuts out.

The brass keys are a bastardization between the Abloys and the stainless S&Gs. They are 1/2-cylinder, but the cuts are not exactly 45° and 90° although the 0° is exact.... (I need to read the patent closer, but this seems to be a reasonable tolerance variation).

BTW, 101 keys are not the only Abloy keys that fit these locks. (left: 101, right 104)

http://www.adaptershack.com/t/abloy_key ... loys_2.jpg

-Railtech
Last edited by railtech on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:39 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Oldfast wrote:Wow.. crazy. Very interesting some of the things we find out in this hobby. And the Railway Police?! Haha.

Interesting, just..... yeah, interesting.


RR police are permitted by state law to operate in 49 states. One state (hint: Islands) doesn't have any common-carrier railroads (only had plantation RRs when it had operating RRs).

I have a buddy who is a RR Police. He can travel to any state his RR operates in & have police powers. I need to ask him about Canada; maybe he has police powers there too?!? (INTERNATIONAL POLICE!!!!????)

He's got some great stories post-hurricane Katrina. He, and a few hundred other RR employees and contractors, were some of the first people to respond post-hurricane. Of course, they were only focused on fixing the RR and nothing else.
Last edited by railtech on Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

By the way,

Does anyone know what this little cut is in the tip of the Abloy version of the 104?

http://www.adaptershack.com/t/abloy_key ... loys_3.jpg

Only thing I could guess was to assist in clearing debris/ice from the keyway???? But that's a guess.
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:53 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Riyame wrote:I am not sure as to the differences of the 107 and 107A key but I have seen both brass and cast steel versions. I will refer your question to somebody that may know. I do know that the only brass ones I have seen are 107 keys.


0323 keys are brass. Or, all of them I have seen are. They (0323) replace 112. 0323 are key retaining; as someone pointed out early on in this thread (Mr. Sour?), 112 keys are not key retaining.
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:05 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

JustPassingThrough wrote:First, I took note that his 107A differed greatly from the one in Mister Sours' image. While Mister Sour's is a three bit, the 107A in my friends possession examined is a four bit. As I said, the key is currently in service on a railroad here in the Northeast, so with all due respect, I am not going to post the dimensions of the bits or an image, but I will list the following:

(bow) 0 90 0 45 (tip) "ACAB"

The bits are not of equal length nor do they conform to the standardized bit length (which I will this discuss later). The key is of machined brass, like Mister Sours. Which led to me to wonder why the 107A keys would be in brass, and the others cast stainless, even the 107.


I missed replying to this, but I believe that "0" between the 90 & the 45 falls in the no-mans-land of the spacer shown in the patent. But I could be wrong.

OTOH, *maybe* if you only put the 107a in part-way, you could open a 101 lock???? 101 cuts being 90-0-45. Someone with a 107a you describe and a 101 lock would have to try it. I have neither.
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JustPassingThrough

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:02 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Interesting proposal. Does anyone know what is the thicknesses of the spacer?

The 0° bit between 45° & 90° on this particular 107A is .10" in length.

Phil
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railtech

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Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:55 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

JustPassingThrough wrote:Interesting proposal. Does anyone know what is the thicknesses of the spacer?

The 0° bit between 45° & 90° on this particular 107A is .10" in length.

Phil


From the patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=RVo0AA ... &q&f=false

Page 7, column 4 (column number shown at top of page; or right hand column on page 7), line 54-56:

"The spacers 16 of the present invention may in one preferred form take the form of a spacer which is of about three times the axial thickness of the rotary disc tumblers 15..."

(Note: The 16 and 15 numbers in the quoted text are referring to call-outs on the drawings in the patent; the spacers are labeled as 16 and the disc tumblers are labeled as 15; if you're not looking at the patent and only my post here, it's confusing).

Also, if you watch the video on YouTube of the S&G being "gutted", you can see the discs are much thinner than the spacers. (Around 1:55 in video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09O5wcNT_0g
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Location: minneapolis

Post Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:53 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Wide wiper inserts cut for each position and all with bottoming shafts, so that each one goes to the bottom and has a flag for the first , second, or third disc.
it appears that tensioning, the zero cut is present on different locks at different levels in the stack,
three of these would be able to tension for all the locks, disc setting you would need three more in a skeletonized form to work around the tensioning flag and shaft.
I really gotta get some of these locks to try that on.
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railtech

Familiar Face

Posts: 50

Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:29 am

Location: Rocket City, USA

Post Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:23 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

I'm wondering if anyone knows what the dots are that generally appear under the least-significant-digit (10x) of the S&G keys. Some keys have no dots, and some keys have up-to 4 dots (most I've seen; perhaps some have more than 4 dots?).

At first, I thought maybe it's a "lot date code" or "batch number", but that seems unlikely as there are never more than 4 dots (that I've seen---these keys have been around a long time now and for the 4-dot keys to only be the 5th time they've been cast (0 dots = 1st casting) seems improbable).

So then I thought maybe a particular key number combined with a particular number of dots was like a "customer number" or customer ID----IE, the key maker (S&G) could tell who they sold the key to even in cases where the same key is used by a different customer (EG: 102 key used by both UP and Conrail). But then I saw some photos on the internet of 103 keys with 1-dot and with 3-dots and both keys were marked CPR (Canadian Pacific RR).

So.... Anyone know what gives with the dots?

One last note: They one key I can recall seeing with 4 dots, the 4th dot was ... funny. It didn't seem cast quite the same as the first three dots (or not the as the dots are normally cast).

Also: The only 108 key I've ever seen, the "8" in 108 was cast very lightly. Is this because 108s are so rare? Or just the one key I happened to see?
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