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Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

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spandexwarrior

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Post Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:59 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Interesting note on the dots.. I saw a couple keys this weekend that had them in a different location than normal (below the 3rd digit of the code). These were on the right side of the blade of the key, just below the bow on the larger section that doesn't enter the lock. I will see if I can get some pics.

-Brian
Last edited by spandexwarrior on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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railtech

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Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

spandexwarrior wrote:Interesting note on the dots.. I saw a couple pics this weekend that had them in a different location than normal (below the 3rd digit of the code). These were on the right side of the blade of the key, just below the bow on the larger section that doesn't enter the lock. I will see if I can get some pics.

-Brian


Wow.

What key number(s)?
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spandexwarrior

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Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:14 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

There was 1 dot on the side of the 102 and 3 dots on the side of the 105.

Image

-Brian
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mister sour

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Post Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Yeppers. Seen this many times. When I get new keys, I like to hunt for the dots.
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plugspin

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Post Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:19 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

railtech wrote:By the way,

Does anyone know what this little cut is in the tip of the Abloy version of the 104?

http://www.adaptershack.com/t/abloy_key ... loys_3.jpg

Only thing I could guess was to assist in clearing debris/ice from the keyway???? But that's a guess.


I'm not very familiar with these specific locks (S&G environmental and the Abloy equivalent), however Abloy does use profile keyways in other lock systems. The inner-most disk will have a notch there so only a matching key can be fully inserted. A number of lock systems do similar things. Barry has some info on this: http://blackbag.nl/?tag=lips-keso

Image
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mister sour

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Post Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:09 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

One of the most complete sets you will see. Missing a 121 and abloy 104. No biggie. Forgot to mention, these arent mine. I knew a dude who had all of these keys.

Image
Last edited by mister sour on Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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spandexwarrior

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Post Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:37 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

plugspin wrote:
railtech wrote:By the way,

Does anyone know what this little cut is in the tip of the Abloy version of the 104?

http://www.adaptershack.com/t/abloy_key ... loys_3.jpg

Only thing I could guess was to assist in clearing debris/ice from the keyway???? But that's a guess.


I'm not very familiar with these specific locks (S&G environmental and the Abloy equivalent), however Abloy does use profile keyways in other lock systems. The inner-most disk will have a notch there so only a matching key can be fully inserted. A number of lock systems do similar things. Barry has some info on this: http://blackbag.nl/?tag=lips-keso

Image


My guess is that was made by a locksmith or someone other than S&G. That pic is the only one I've seen that has a standard Abloy bow. The dimensions of the 'standard' Profile keyway are the same so a fairly large number of blanks would work. I would love to see the front of that key.

As a side note, if anyone has a source for the Silca AY2, AY2P, AY30 or the JMA ABL-2 I would love to get 20 or so for a little project.

-Brian
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Revinous

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Post Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:14 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Interesting thread, my question is why do some of these keys have the S&G logo while others don't? From what I've read on this thread is because other companies made them? If I wanted to start collecting these should I look for the S&G logo only or it doesn't matter, if I wanted to collect every key.
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flywheel

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Post Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:41 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

railtech wrote:I'm wondering if anyone knows what the dots are that generally appear under the least-significant-digit (10x) of the S&G keys. Some keys have no dots, and some keys have up-to 4 dots (most I've seen; perhaps some have more than 4 dots?).

At first, I thought maybe it's a "lot date code" or "batch number", but that seems unlikely as there are never more than 4 dots (that I've seen---these keys have been around a long time now and for the 4-dot keys to only be the 5th time they've been cast (0 dots = 1st casting) seems improbable).

So then I thought maybe a particular key number combined with a particular number of dots was like a "customer number" or customer ID----IE, the key maker (S&G) could tell who they sold the key to even in cases where the same key is used by a different customer (EG: 102 key used by both UP and Conrail). But then I saw some photos on the internet of 103 keys with 1-dot and with 3-dots and both keys were marked CPR (Canadian Pacific RR).

So.... Anyone know what gives with the dots?

One last note: They one key I can recall seeing with 4 dots, the 4th dot was ... funny. It didn't seem cast quite the same as the first three dots (or not the as the dots are normally cast).

Also: The only 108 key I've ever seen, the "8" in 108 was cast very lightly. Is this because 108s are so rare? Or just the one key I happened to see?

spandexwarrior wrote:There was 1 dot on the side of the 102 and 3 dots on the side of the 105.

Image

-Brian

I don't know if this has been answered conclusively but I'll put forth an easily tested hypothesis.
Maybe the dots relay information to which disc requires tension to open the lock. For example, after the discs are positioned properly, 1 dot means disc one requires tension to turn the plug and open the lock, 2 dots means disc two, 3 dots means disc three, and 4 dots means any disc can be used to turn the whole pack.
Why would this matter when you have key in hand? Probably doesn't, but at least it is a testable theory (for those of you with a couple locks, a couple keys with dots, and a couple minutes). :smile:
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keymaster1053

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Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:53 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hmm, interesting theory there. for this to be true, ALL 102 keys would have to have the same number of dots on them, all the 103's the same, and so on. I'll check my keys. :)




flywheel wrote:
railtech wrote:I'm wondering if anyone knows what the dots are that generally appear under the least-significant-digit (10x) of the S&G keys. Some keys have no dots, and some keys have up-to 4 dots (most I've seen; perhaps some have more than 4 dots?).

At first, I thought maybe it's a "lot date code" or "batch number", but that seems unlikely as there are never more than 4 dots (that I've seen---these keys have been around a long time now and for the 4-dot keys to only be the 5th time they've been cast (0 dots = 1st casting) seems improbable).

So then I thought maybe a particular key number combined with a particular number of dots was like a "customer number" or customer ID----IE, the key maker (S&G) could tell who they sold the key to even in cases where the same key is used by a different customer (EG: 102 key used by both UP and Conrail). But then I saw some photos on the internet of 103 keys with 1-dot and with 3-dots and both keys were marked CPR (Canadian Pacific RR).

So.... Anyone know what gives with the dots?

One last note: They one key I can recall seeing with 4 dots, the 4th dot was ... funny. It didn't seem cast quite the same as the first three dots (or not the as the dots are normally cast).

Also: The only 108 key I've ever seen, the "8" in 108 was cast very lightly. Is this because 108s are so rare? Or just the one key I happened to see?

spandexwarrior wrote:There was 1 dot on the side of the 102 and 3 dots on the side of the 105.

Image

-Brian

I don't know if this has been answered conclusively but I'll put forth an easily tested hypothesis.
Maybe the dots relay information to which disc requires tension to open the lock. For example, after the discs are positioned properly, 1 dot means disc one requires tension to turn the plug and open the lock, 2 dots means disc two, 3 dots means disc three, and 4 dots means any disc can be used to turn the whole pack.
Why would this matter when you have key in hand? Probably doesn't, but at least it is a testable theory (for those of you with a couple locks, a couple keys with dots, and a couple minutes). :smile:
(20:10:59) Blacky: oki
(20:18:08) MBI: Me working for the CIA is about as likely as you working in the Middle East.
(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
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flywheel

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Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:22 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

keymaster1053 wrote:Hmm, interesting theory there. for this to be true, ALL 102 keys would have to have the same number of dots on them, all the 103's the same, and so on. I'll check my keys. :)

Let me stop you there. The theory was the disc that turns the pack and opens the lock is related to the number of dots on the key. All 102 keys would NOT necessarily have the same number of dots. Instead, that means there are 4 possibilities for each environmental lock out there.
As I understand it all new environmental locks can be opened by turning any disc. That leads to a second question, do the new locks and keys have dots on them?
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keymaster1053

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Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:03 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

I see, well if that's true, then the prior assumption here was that the shallowest cut was the one that was the tensioner, your theory would invalidate that belief. Interesting, but if that is true, how would it apply to say different 102 locks? if two different 102 keys have different dots, how does the lock differentiate? that 102 lock is only going to open with one tensioner every time, regardless of what dots are on the keys, right?





flywheel wrote:
keymaster1053 wrote:Hmm, interesting theory there. for this to be true, ALL 102 keys would have to have the same number of dots on them, all the 103's the same, and so on. I'll check my keys. :)

Let me stop you there. The theory was the disc that turns the pack and opens the lock is related to the number of dots on the key. All 102 keys would NOT necessarily have the same number of dots. Instead, that means there are 4 possibilities for each environmental lock out there.
As I understand it all new environmental locks can be opened by turning any disc. That leads to a second question, do the new locks and keys have dots on them?
(20:10:59) Blacky: oki
(20:18:08) MBI: Me working for the CIA is about as likely as you working in the Middle East.
(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
<<

flywheel

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Post Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

keymaster1053 wrote:I see, well if that's true, then the prior assumption here was that the shallowest cut was the one that was the tensioner, your theory would invalidate that belief. Interesting, but if that is true, how would it apply to say different 102 locks? if two different 102 keys have different dots, how does the lock differentiate? that 102 lock is only going to open with one tensioner every time, regardless of what dots are on the keys, right?

Using the 102 as our example requires the locks three discs to be positioned at 45° 0° 90° before opening. Imagine having two of these locks, imagine having the two corresponding keys, and imagine this theory is correct ( :shock: ). One key has one dot and the other has two dots. You take the lock and key with one dot see that the discs are scrambled. You move disc one freely throughout the full range of motion and nothing happens. You set disc three at 90° and disc two at 0°. Now you begin to rotate disc one and at 45° it catches. Disc one now requires a lot more tension and the whole disc packs rotates until the shackle drops open.
Same thing with the lock and key with two dots. This time after setting disc three and two properly you begin to rotate disc one. It rotates from 0-90° and nothing happens. You try again by setting disc three at 90°, disc one at 45°, and finally begin to move disc two. It catches almost immediately at 0° and the whole disc pack turns with it to open the lock.
Of course both keys will open both locks since their cuts are properly angled but when picking open one disc rules the others to open the lock.

I don't think the theory holds any water but I floated it to encourage discussion, maybe find the correct answer, and maybe also to have the theory tested. I currently have an Enviromental lock that I disappointingly have not been able to open yet. I have tried every combo at least twice and used the first disc to try opening the lock. Nothing. To find the proper tensioning disc I'll need put it in a vise and make a little tool to prevent disc one from moving when rotating the other discs while trying every possible combination again...and maybe again.
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keymaster1053

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Post Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:34 am

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Hmm, well you have certainly sparked discussion! LOL. what do you use to pick these? I have found that a peterson PryBar with the tip ground just slightly, is the perfect size, and it allows you to move each disc without disturbing the others. I have a bunch of enviro's, and also have opened one up and did a gut shot video on youtube, in case you are interested.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09O5wcNT_0g
Somehow I don't believe S&G would have had the forethought to do anything to their locks or keys to "aid a lockpicker" in defeating their locks. I doubt that is the purpose of the dots. I could be wrong of course, but I feel it's something far less important, like indicating which factory made that particular key or something like that. But it is fun to speculate and hear others ideas. :)




flywheel wrote:
keymaster1053 wrote:I see, well if that's true, then the prior assumption here was that the shallowest cut was the one that was the tensioner, your theory would invalidate that belief. Interesting, but if that is true, how would it apply to say different 102 locks? if two different 102 keys have different dots, how does the lock differentiate? that 102 lock is only going to open with one tensioner every time, regardless of what dots are on the keys, right?

Using the 102 as our example requires the locks three discs to be positioned at 45° 0° 90° before opening. Imagine having two of these locks, imagine having the two corresponding keys, and imagine this theory is correct ( :shock: ). One key has one dot and the other has two dots. You take the lock and key with one dot see that the discs are scrambled. You move disc one freely throughout the full range of motion and nothing happens. You set disc three at 90° and disc two at 0°. Now you begin to rotate disc one and at 45° it catches. Disc one now requires a lot more tension and the whole disc packs rotates until the shackle drops open.
Same thing with the lock and key with two dots. This time after setting disc three and two properly you begin to rotate disc one. It rotates from 0-90° and nothing happens. You try again by setting disc three at 90°, disc one at 45°, and finally begin to move disc two. It catches almost immediately at 0° and the whole disc pack turns with it to open the lock.
Of course both keys will open both locks since their cuts are properly angled but when picking open one disc rules the others to open the lock.

I don't think the theory holds any water but I floated it to encourage discussion, maybe find the correct answer, and maybe also to have the theory tested. I currently have an Enviromental lock that I disappointingly have not been able to open yet. I have tried every combo at least twice and used the first disc to try opening the lock. Nothing. To find the proper tensioning disc I'll need put it in a vise and make a little tool to prevent disc one from moving when rotating the other discs while trying every possible combination again...and maybe again.
(20:10:59) Blacky: oki
(20:18:08) MBI: Me working for the CIA is about as likely as you working in the Middle East.
(20:19:01) Riyame: lol
(20:19:05) Riyame: he is in dubai
(20:19:26) MBI rescinds his previous comment
<<

railtech

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Post Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: Sargent & Greenleaf Rail Road Environmental Padlock Keys

Revinous wrote:Interesting thread, my question is why do some of these keys have the S&G logo while others don't? From what I've read on this thread is because other companies made them? If I wanted to start collecting these should I look for the S&G logo only or it doesn't matter, if I wanted to collect every key.


First, as far as I know, only S&G and Abloy make keys that fit these locks. The Abloys come in at least two flavors (rounded-rectangle bow and sort of upside-down triangle bow). The S&G's all have the same circle shape bow, but the stainless ones don't (usually, or don't that I can remember seeing) have any kind of marking other than key # and serial number or occasionally key owner name (ie, "UPRR"). The Brass ones tend to have the S&G stamped on them.

Why did they switch for some keys (ie, 107) from stainless with no logo to brass with logo? I don't know. (There are at least two brass 107A versions, in addition to the stainless 107).

Why does Abloy make two different Bows? I don't know that either.

Abloy pic showing different bows:

http://www.adaptershack.com/t/abloy_key ... loys_2.jpg
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