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Oldfast Impressions

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:29 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Oh... ok. Thank you for that Rai. Glad I didn't purchase one then... at least for now.
I have quite enough to get familiar with when it comes to impressioning pin tumblers.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:25 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Although I'm still limited by both my lack of knowledge & keyblanks...
I'm still REALLY enjoying this. Thank you again guys for all of your help thus far!

So I've just been jumping around to different brands lately in hopes of getting a
good overall feel for them. Here's a couple more 'firsts' for me. A Segal and a Yale.

Image
You all remember Dave from the pawnshop? (retired sheriff/lock collector).
I've been making keys for him when I can. Many of his locks are out of my realm,
but if it's a pin tumbler and I have the correct blank... I'm usually able to help. This one
gave me some trouble actually... but when all was said and done, I was pleased to have a
working key for him. BTW...... is this pronounced segal like the bird, or segal like the actor?

Image



And my first Yale. A very nice, straight foward experience.... no guessing games.
I found the Y1 blank really lends itself to the process of impressiong. The top edge
of the blank is quite thin, essentially giving you the same affect as knife edging does.

Image

I kept getting DEEP crater marks at pin five, and began to wonder if it'd ever end. lol

Image

As always... a couple questions:

1. As I mentioned earlier... I'd really like to begin creating antique looking keys via sanding and tarnishing.
My research continues as to the best agents/methods for doing so, and I look foward to sharing my findings
for anyone who may be interested. Certainly this will require some degree of hand-sanding... but I wonder if
I could start out on the grinder? Obviously I'm not talking about a traditional grinding wheel (that's just asking
for destruction lol
). But is there a certain type of wheel I could purchase... one that would be semi-gentle, yet
abrasive enough to give me a good start on rounding off edges and thinning out the bow? Anything come to mind?

2. I'm up for some reading on the topic of impressioning. In terms of 'free reading', the web seems to offer little.
Greg Miller has a good article, but beyond that my search did not yield much. I'm unwilling to spend money on any
literature at this point, but if anyone can point me towards internet aricles, PDF's, etc.... I'd greatly appreciate it.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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mdc5150

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Post Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:27 am

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Oldfast wrote:
Although I'm still limited by both my lack of knowledge & keyblanks...
I'm still REALLY enjoying this. Thank you again guys for all of your help thus far!

So I've just been jumping around to different brands lately in hopes of getting a
good overall feel for them. Here's a couple more 'firsts' for me. A Segal and a Yale.

Image
You all remember Dave from the pawnshop? (retired sheriff/lock collector).
I've been making keys for him when I can. Many of his locks are out of my realm,
but if it's a pin tumbler and I have the correct blank... I'm usually able to help. This one
gave me some trouble actually... but when all was said and done, I was pleased to have a
working key for him. BTW...... is this pronounced segal like the bird, or segal like the actor?

Image



And my first Yale. A very nice, straight foward experience.... no guessing games.
I found the Y1 blank really lends itself to the process of impressiong. The top edge
of the blank is quite thin, essentially giving you the same affect as knife edging does.

Image

I kept getting DEEP crater marks at pin five, and began to wonder if it'd ever end. lol

Image

As always... a couple questions:

1. As I mentioned earlier... I'd really like to begin creating antique looking keys via sanding and tarnishing.
My research continues as to the best agents/methods for doing so, and I look foward to sharing my findings
for anyone who may be interested. Certainly this will require some degree of hand-sanding... but I wonder if
I could start out on the grinder? Obviously I'm not talking about a traditional grinding wheel (that's just asking
for destruction lol
). But is there a certain type of wheel I could purchase... one that would be semi-gentle, yet
abrasive enough to give me a good start on rounding off edges and thinning out the bow? Anything come to mind?

2. I'm up for some reading on the topic of impressioning. In terms of 'free reading', the web seems to offer little.
Greg Miller has a good article, but beyond that my search did not yield much. I'm unwilling to spend money on any
literature at this point, but if anyone can point me towards internet aricles, PDF's, etc.... I'd greatly appreciate it.



Mike you are doing a great job with the impressioning. An old retired locksmith told me when I asked about books etc for impressioning and he told me he had met the guy who wrote all the books on the subject. He asked him what the secret was to becoming so go and the answer was "locks, locks, locks, thousands of locks."

As a relative newbie at pin tumbler impressioning I am impressed at your ability to impression that Yale. I've always found Yales very difficult because of the blunt pins. The only thing I can tell you that might help is to make sure that what your impressioning remains as stiff and still as you can get it while you are making your marks. I put cheap padlocks in the vise sideways and tighten them down for my practice so that I'm not fighting against the grip of the vice but instead it holds it completely still. Equally important is getting the key gripped into your impressioning grip as tight as you can so it also does not move. I just switched to this http://www.lockpicks.com/standardplasti ... gtool.aspx and it's like a whole new world opened up to me. Wafer locks mark with such clear marks that I don't even need my glasses. On the subject of glasses and magnification, I use the strongest reading glasses I can get for impressioning. I hate the damn visor. I will never use one again. All it ever did for me was make me sweat. I am by no means an expert at this but I'm just imparting my 2 cents in case someone else does not chime in. Oh, and it's like the bird.
Last edited by mdc5150 on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:45 am

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Placing the padlock sideways in the vice! What a wonderfully simplistic solution that never even occurred to me!

Any time I impression a padlock that is of any value to me or someone else, I wrap it in a piece of 1/8 inch thick rubber before
placing it in the vice. As it adds protection, it also creates allowance for wiggle room :/ Normally this doesn't make for a problem.
However, why not eliminate any factors that are only adding to my confusion... especially with those locks that give me trouble.
If this works as well as I'm thinking it will, I may even consider devoting a vice to a vertically mounted position.

I always look forward to your thoughts & I'm very glad you decided to throw in your "2 cents" Matt! Thanks... very helpful.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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rai

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Post Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:14 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

to hold things in a vice without causing toolmarks, I have used cardboard, (expedient when nothing better is at hand, won't hold up as well) Leather, (traditional)thick like horse tackle, and when the item can be wrapped all around without blocking the work intended, there are slices of bike innertube, you can cut them into wide rubber bands and they do come in a variety of small sizes, right up to 2 inch diameter. If the work gets rough, the rubber can get somewhat cut up, but keep the whole inner tube so you can easily make another when necessary.

ageing a brass key, this can be done with heat, however this must be carefully controlled so you do not weaken the key by annealing. for surface patina, black can be achieved with 'liver of sulphur' sold at jewelers supply houses, Liver of sulphur will blacken it, if used full strenght, ratyoke dilutes it in water for some effects or, WARNING if you are sensitive, do not read further, Urine contains uric acid and when aged a bit also ammonia, this has been a useful chemical for thousands of years, Romans used it to wash thier togas, and gunpowder would not have been invented without it (saltpeter) In England the king owned all the sweeps from the floors of stables by law. because the king was makin gunpowder.
this can be done by aging in soil with the magic ingredient, or possibley if you can take it, heating it in a pan.
two things you can do with this information, One you can research it and see if you can find the references, or two You can make snarky juvenile comments, thats ok too, we were all snarky juveniles once.
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jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
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Post Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:25 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

FWIW, if I am working on a nice padlock in my vise, I will wrap a shop rag around it. This usually works, though the locks are not always flat on the sides. I am going to try the sideways approach, wonder if it would work alright for picking?
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:07 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Couple of keys for Jeff's Yales...

Thanks again for trusting me with them & giving me an opportunity for some more experience.

ImageImage

I've only impressioned a handful of Yales at this point, but I'm noticing a pattern... at least with the Y1 keyways;
The profile of this keyway makes for a rather thin keyblank. Initially I thought this would aid in impressioning...
sort of like 'knife-edging' would. However, sometimes after my first impression (giving you # of pins & spacing),
I'll stop receiving ANY marks on the TOP edge of the blank where we're use to looking for them. My advice:

When this occurs, do not attempt to impression harder. Instead, look to the the top EDGE of the blank for the marks.
These marks will not look like the ones we're accustom to seeing & you may have to rotate the key back & forth slowly
in order to find a viewing angle that will reveal their presence... but they are there. As you file deeper and the blank
widens, the impressions will be found on the top edge once again... but some bittings may not reach that depth.

Another thing - Twice now I've brought a 6-pin blank to the grinder in order to shorten it for use in a 5-pin lock.
If you happen to do this, bare in mind the reason for a tip. It quickly aligns the key with the warding and allows
for an easy single-motion insertion. If you recreate the tip at the incorrect height and/or shape, difficulties
arise at the point of entry. You'll have added a step... having to manually align the key before it slides in.


Image
First laminated SQUIRE I've ever seen... neat little lock. And I just so happened to have a blank for it.

Image
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Riyame

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Location: Canada

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Very cool stuff! You are getting better and better :)
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:35 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Thanks Eric! Learning a little more with each one. :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jeffmoss26

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Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:01 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Thanks again Oldfast for helping me out! Sorry for sending those 6 pin blanks when the lock was only 5 pins :(
That Squire padlock is something else! I thought the key/keyway resembled an M1 but of course they do not match :)
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

No problem... the pleasure was all mine. And no worries on the blanks. In fact, I had some 5-pin blanks
and didn't really have to shorten the ones you sent.... but like I said, I liked the look of the bows!

Feel free to play again sometime, eh? :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:45 pm

Re: Oldfast Impressions

When I started impressioning, I bought a 10x magnifier that fits on the end of a mini mag light. I was finding it difficult telling the high spots from the cuts under magnification, so I used a sharpie (marker brand in the US) to mark the high areas, and it worked like a charm.

Not long ago, I bought a better magnifier. It is 45x and has its own built in light source. Best of all, it only costs $10 at www.enterthecore.net Also, never needed to mark the spaces between bittings, as the greater magnification makes it clear what is high or low. This site also has something else great for beginning impressioning - prescored key blanks. They are 0-cut, so the pin spacing is already clear. Plus, the surface is excellent for finding the impressioning marks - they will be right in the middle of the cut spaces.

They also have some lock picks and practice locks. Pricing is good. The site is for the penetration testing and training company that Deviant Ollam (author of Practical Lock Picking and Keys to the Kingdom, both good references) works for. (Or maybe has ownership, I don't know.)

No, I don't have any affiliation with the site, just some good stuff for beginners.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
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Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:02 am

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Oldfast, I am sure I can come up with some more stuff for you! :)
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
<<

GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:58 am

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Congratulations, Caveman! Feeling that key turn the first time is so great. If you are anything like me, you spend another minute or so fine tuning the key to make it work smoothly. Then I spend another 20 minutes or so just opening and closing the lock. I spoke to another lockie who says that after 30+ years, he still feels that way.

It is a true accomplishment, and it feels like it, too!

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
<<

mastersmith

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Post Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:59 am

Re: Oldfast Impressions

Another thing that may allow folks here to use some existing skills while learning to impression. I "read" picked locks first. If you already have a lock picked, get a good light and look inside the keyway. You can actually see the pin lengths. This too is an acquired skill, but you can see a pins length relative to the pin next to it. Then you know which depths are shallow or deep. I have many times had this prevent me from following a false read while impressioning, as I already know which cuts are shallow. For this I use an otoscope, but a focusing flashlight usually works well enough. Most of us have one of those in our tool box.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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